Lowering on GriGri, control rate of descent with brake hand?

A couple thoughts occurred to me recently, and I want to run something by the folks here.

1. Lowering/rappelling with a belay plate requires adjusting your grip on the brake strand to control the rate of descent
2. Common critique of the Mammut Smart is that it is not as easy to control rate of descent (however almost all reviews also tend to say that practice resolves this issue). Smart utilises two hands on brake strand to control speed while lowering
3. Climbers learning to belay on the GriGri tend to control rate of descent with the handle.

It stands to reason that the reason new users to the Smart find lowering awkward may simply be that they have never had to control rate of descent with their brake hand.

Which leads me to my main question — when lowering with the GriGri, are you supposed to control the rate of descent of the climber with the handle, the brake hand, or a combination of both?

----

Edit: D'oh... I didn't RTFM...

The GriGri manual (in rather small text on the last page!):

The handle helps adjust the friction, but the descent is controlled by the hand gripping the brake side of the rope

So I'll alter the point of this post... do YOU control rate of descent with the handle? Do you think there's a specific reason Petzl advises controlling rate of descent with the brake hand?

I would hazard a guess that Petzl words it that way to stress that the belayer must remain in control of the brake strand, the Gri-Gri is only there to assist the braking effect.  If they recommended using the handle as the primary descent control, that would possibly imply that it's okay to release the brake strand.  

I balance lowering speed with brake strand control and handle control, same idea as partially raising the brake hand when lowering with an ATC if there's a lot of friction in the system.  

With the brake hand and it’s easiest to control when the hand is positioned down and back below the hip. I taught someone this exact thing today. 

J Lwrote:

A couple thoughts occurred to me recently, and I want to run something by the folks here.

1. Lowering/rappelling with a belay plate requires adjusting your grip on the brake strand to control the rate of descent
2. Common critique of the Mammut Smart is that it is not as easy to control rate of descent (however almost all reviews also tend to say that practice resolves this issue). Smart utilises two hands on brake strand to control speed while lowering
3. Climbers learning to belay on the GriGri tend to control rate of descent with the handle.

It stands to reason that the reason new users to the Smart find lowering awkward may simply be that they have never had to control rate of descent with their brake hand.

Which leads me to my main question — when lowering with the GriGri, are you supposed to control the rate of descent of the climber with the handle, the brake hand, or a combination of both?

----

Edit: D'oh... I didn't RTFM...

The GriGri manual (in rather small text on the last page!):

So I'll alter the point of this post... do YOU control rate of descent with the handle? Do you think there's a specific reason Petzl advises controlling rate of descent with the brake hand?

With the Gri you are supposed to open the cam with the lever and use your brake hand for control but in reality people end up using the lever because it’s easier on their baby millennial hands, ergo the fatal flaw with the Gri.

Anna, totally agree. For the comparatively thinner ropes most sport climbers use nowadays, bringing the rope around the hip makes a ton of sense. My local gym uses 10mm semi-static ropes = a whole lot of friction... so much so that I find I have to open the cam completely via handle and thread rope through to bring down my lighter partner. With that kind of behaviour, it's no surprise that everyone I've seen just yanks the handle back. Instructors in my gym recommend pulling back on the handle with two fingers, so counter the tendency to pull harder in a panic. No idea whether that works or not.

Tradi, sounds like Petzl put that verbiage in the manual to cover their ass. It's curious how it's not meaningfully shown in the pictograms.

J Lwrote:

Anna, totally agree. For the comparatively thinner ropes most sport climbers use nowadays, bringing the rope around the hip makes a ton of sense. My local gym uses 10mm semi-static ropes = a whole lot of friction... so much so that I find I have to open the cam completely via handle and thread rope through to bring down my lighter partner. With that kind of behaviour, it's no surprise that everyone I've seen just yanks the handle back. Instructors in my gym recommend pulling back on the handle with two fingers, so counter the tendency to pull harder in a panic. No idea whether that works or not.

Tradi, sounds like Petzl put that verbiage in the manual to cover their ass. It's curious how it's not meaningfully shown in the pictograms.

Petzl has been trying to cover their ass with verbiage on the GriGri since it came out.

I do both. The exact contribution of lever action vs brake hand depends on thickness of the rope, the weight of the person being lowered vs my weight, and the friction in the system. 

On a thick rope with a lot of friction, you might have a fully open lever, and only the hand controlling the rate of descent, in extreme case of gym ropes with double wrap at the top, and a light climber, maybe even pushing the rope through the device, lol.

On a skinny slick rope with minimal system friction and a heavy climber, it would be partially open lever, and brake hand control, with lever opening/closing some to make the brake hand control easy.

Lever wide open and control rate with brake hand.  That's why the grigri+ sucks.

Do people have trouble lowering with the Mammut Smart? I’ve been using it for years, and it’s my go-to device to teach new people. If anything I’ve had much better success with people learning to lower in a controlled manner compared to other devices. Anecdotal, but I suppose that people are struggling to lower with it is as well.

Carabiner on your leg loop when lowering with a Grigri increases control (friction).

Danielwrote:

Do people have trouble lowering with the Mammut Smart? I’ve been using it for years, and it’s my go-to device to teach new people. If anything I’ve had much better success with people learning to lower in a controlled manner compared to other devices. Anecdotal, but I suppose that people are struggling to lower with it is as well.

Some people do, it’s a little tricky with certain ropes I think. My lower is smooth as butter however.

I didn't have trouble lowering with the Smart, either via the recommended method or the verboten "rotate the device backwards" method. Both allowed me to lower a climber smoothly and quickly.

I have read online reviews that mention that it is hard at the beginning to find the bite point where the rope starts to feed out. I (perhaps incorrectly) attribute this to unfamiliarity with controlling rate of descent via brake hand, hence the topic.

I open my GriGri up with two fingers, usually wide open, and then control the descent with my brake hand.  It's the best way to get a smooth and safe descent and it's the way I teach people to use the GriGri.  I also teach people to belay with leather gloves.

I tend to crack the lever with my pinky and control with brake hand.

FrankPSwrote:

Carabiner on your leg loop when lowering with a Grigri increases control (friction).

I really like the (very expensive) Freino carabiner purpose built for the Grigri, because of the extra friction hitch:

https://www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Carabiners-and-quickdraws/FREINO

Previously, when lowering heavier climbers, I would wear gloves to achieve the proper, non-painful friction with my brake hand 

As other have posted, I also don't hold the handle with my full grip around it. 

I only ever place one or two fingers on the handle and I close/bend the remaining fingers into a fist so I don't accidentally grab the handle and hold it full open if I loose control of the lowering.

I use the combination of the lever and the brake hand to control the descend. Not opening the lever completely takes some weight off the brake hand, which gives me better control especially when lowering a heavier climber. I don't understand why some people always open the lever fully and then create additional friction hitches to add friction when you could just use the lever instead.

I tend to do a kind of 60/40 split of control with the lever and the brake hand, down and back below the hip. 

I pull grigri wide open and use brake hand to control rate (every time).  Handle only moves from wide open to fully shut for rest of whatever.  Handle is not for control.

Agreed, handle is not for speed control on the GriGri. 

Super duper high quality bumping of an old thread right here. I put down my quantum physics and level 10,000 calculus books in order to work on a far more complex and difficult problem, how to correctly rap with a Grigri.