The status of "Idiot Savant" at Sunset Park, Chattanooga?

Does anyone have any experience with this climb, recent or otherwise? I've been told the piton(s) is gone and there's currently no anchor. Happy to work around the latter but curious to know how death-defying this climb is in its current state after admiring the feature while on Northwest Conversion over the weekend.

I finally got around to rapping down this thing earlier today. In case anyone else is interested: there's indeed no anchor. One piton remains, and it's rusted to all hell. It could be backed up with small brass potentially ahead of time. There's also a pair of fixed nuts.

If anyone knows the protocol/who to talk to for potentially replacing the piton (I've heard FA said no bolt), shoot me a message. At any rate, it's an incredible looking feature! One of the most impressive roofs at Sunset

I would be interested in checking this climb out sometime. I don't personally see any issue with replacing the pin since one already existed there. 

Could also be worth contacting SCC and Luis Rodriguez, the area rep (luisrod@msn.com), about putting in an anchor and new pin (or even a crux bolt if it can be allowed).

Luis responded to me on the Chatt climber Facebook page actually, he's the one who informed me that about the FA's wishes re: bolting. Sunset is notoriously weird about anchors and drilling, but yeah, it would be nice not to have to rap down the Silent Runner chains. I'll shoot him another email.

As for checking it out some time, shoot me a message if you need a partner! I have at least one buddy interested, but I expect it's going to take me more than a single trip to make any progress   still have yet to actually try pulling on it after all

It's really sad when the FA doesn't want pins replaced with a bolt. Always seemed like holding on to something for nothing to me. Ego driven bs really. Anchors ok yeah area protocol but if you pounded a pin that's rusted out why care if it's replaced by a bolt?

I would like to think I'm a pretty dedicated tradster, but to me, a good piton and a good bolt might as well be the same thing. Never fully understood that ethical dilemma, it's just fixed pro either way. Haven't confirmed one way or another yet whether or not a new piton would be acceptable, may have an update soon

BigCountrywrote: It's really sad when the FA doesn't want pins replaced with a bolt. Always seemed like holding on to something for nothing to me. Ego driven bs really. Anchors ok yeah area protocol but if you pounded a pin that's rusted out why care if it's replaced by a bolt?

You know Forrest very well? What indication do you have that his preference for the pin to not be replaced by a bolt is ego driven? A bolt simply isn't needed.

Nothing but respect here for Forrest and the others whose shoulders modern climbers like myself stand on. I’ve no interest in trying to change his route, just figuring out if there’s an appropriate way to invest some of my time and/or money and see more people get on it.

Kirk Brodewrote:

You know Forrest very well? What indication do you have that his preference for the pin to not be replaced by a bolt is ego driven? A bolt simply isn't needed.

Lol no I don't know the dude personally. I'm guessing you might. So was the pin even needed? If it's rusted out and not needed that's one thing. Bunch of fixed nuts and pins look like trash on the rock, so again how is it not ego driven?? Fixed crap all over it may as well bolt it

I think the general thought is that if you are against having rusty gear on a route replaced for safety reasons you think the way you did the route originally and by extension yourself are important enough that it doesnt matter if someone gets hurt due to something breaking. Steel corrodes, why replace one steel piton with another ( I know stainless doesnt last forever either)? There are also 2 fixed wires below the piton, one pretty rusty, and no anchors. Does it have to stay that way?.

BigCountrywrote: Lol no I don't know the dude personally. I'm guessing you might. So was the pin even needed? If it's rusted out and not needed that's one thing. Bunch of fixed nuts and pins look like trash on the rock, so again how is it not ego driven?? Fixed crap all over it may as well bolt it

Who's ego are you talking about? The person who got their nut stuck? Or Forrest who has nothing to do with the stuck nuts? When you come across a stuck cam do you say that's ego-driven also? And then use it to justify retrobolting the route? Surely not. How are stuck nuts any different?

Fixed crap all over it may as well remove the crap. Why not that?

Lol ok then we will stick to just the rusty pin. Pins rust out what do you want to do? Replace it with new pin? Let it rust? Replace it with bolt? And I'll ask again, was the pin ever really necessary?

This post is not the place for arguing for retrobolting bold trad lines, something I’m not and have never been in favor of. That’s happened enough around Chattanooga. It’s just about the current status of Idiot Savant and potential updates to the route. I never suggested adding a bolt, I was only told that it was an already-nixed idea.

Also, Kirk and Forrest are both highly accomplished and respected figures in Chattanooga trad climbing. Don't think it’s fair to just assume the worst 

No worries Andrew this is no fault of yours. I'm not advocating any retro activity. As someone who has done some FA'S I try to be aware of my affect on the rock and climbers that I leave. I don't use fixed pins for a reason. Anyway you're good bud I understand getting psyched on a feature and wanting to bring it back to a fun place. I don't understand the butt hurt about ego around fixed gear. And it's ego. You find a bad piece of fixed gear on any of my FA'S just fix it, no need to ask. Won't find them near Chat though
JW nails it with his comment above but for whatever reason Kirk wants to single out my comments which is fun and funny. I'll banter this back and forth if he wants.

BigCountrywrote: No worries Andrew this is no fault of yours. I'm not advocating any retro activity. As someone who has done some FA'S I try to be aware of my affect on the rock and climbers that I leave. I don't use fixed pins for a reason. Anyway you're good bud I understand getting psyched on a feature and wanting to bring it back to a fun place. I don't understand the butt hurt about ego around fixed gear. And it's ego. You find a bad piece of fixed gear on any of my FA'S just fix it, no need to ask. Won't find them near Chat though JW nails it with his comment above but for whatever reason Kirk wants to single out my comments which is fun and funny. I'll banter this back and forth if he wants.

On the face your sentiment isn't off. But you're taking hear say from hear say and making it the story. With this it's a bit more complicated for reasons I'm not entitled to get into here. Kirk is defending a friend and legend who's not going to himself, and likely wouldn't care if he was on Mt Project. It's not an issue so much of retrobolting or not but retrobolting and bolting cracks is flat out ridiculous in this area. So you have an issue that kinda started personal and devolved into a broader conversation. 

I trust this issue will be one day resolved. But for now if you want to do idiot savant it is what it is. The long forgotten art of modern climbing is knowing when to bail. Sunset isn't Eldo plenty of other challenging options. 

The chance of replacing the piton is still alive and unlikely to cause major controversy, as far as I know. If and when I get the okay, I’ll update this thread and maybe even post the climb up here on MP. I think that update would maintain the climb’s still-adventurous character without the risk of breaking someone’s ankles because old metal rusted and snapped unexpectedly. But that’s just one climber’s thoughts, I don’t claim to speak for everyone …

Danny you're absolutely right. Andrew I hope you get to replace the piton and clean up the route

Andrew Richardsonwrote:

The chance of replacing the piton is still alive and unlikely to cause major controversy, as far as I know. If and when I get the okay, I’ll update this thread and maybe even post the climb up here on MP. I think that update would maintain the climb’s still-adventurous character without the risk of breaking someone’s ankles because old metal rusted and snapped unexpectedly. But that’s just one climber’s thoughts, I don’t claim to speak for everyone …

Removing the wires (since they don't belong on the route anyway) and replacing the piton will not cause any controversy. That's what Forrest recommended. I have a funkness device if you need one. I might do it myself if you haven't already done it before I get there.

Also add belay/rappel anchors at the top if you want. The Park Service requires permission for that as you probably already know. The reason we didn't put top anchors on it when we put them on Silent Runner is because there were way more routes that needed anchors than we had hardware. So we had to pick and choose sparingly which routes received anchors.

Appreciate it Kirk. I have your number and think you have mine, so I'll let you know if/when I get up there to replace it. If you get there first and would like assistance, I'm always around.

Sounds great Andrew