Extend BD cams or not

I mostly have BD cams with a moderately loose attached sling...    I was originally taught to extend every cam with an alpine draw to prevent the rope from shaking... walking the cam out.  On a recent lead I was not so confident in my smear and arms tiring on a layback crack, and just clipped directly into the carabiner on the cam.  I did this on a few cam placements on this pitch.  Alas, the cams held fine and my follower did not find any cams that had walked out.     Without extending the cams I significantly reduce the potential distance for a fall and quicker clips, but the CAM may walk... What say ye old tradmasters.... extend or not?

I extend about 1/2 my placements based on how straight the rope line is.  You certainly do not need to extend every piece. 

climber patwrote:

I extend about 1/2 my placements based on how straight the rope line is.  You certainly do not need to extend every piece. 

Exactly.
Two climbs you have done, Great Arch and The Mummy.  One you can climb with no extended cams and the other not so much.  

I admittedly don't have as much experience as a lot of other people around here, but from my experience, the risk isn't so much that the cam could walk out of the crack. It's more so the risk that the cam could walk further into the crack and become irretrievable. The most egregious example of this I've seen has been the 7 or so cams stuck deep within the 2nd pitch crack of the grack.

So, that means the question of whether to extend or not comes down to if you'll lose the cam to the crack and how bad the rope drag will be. (That or if you are putting it in a really shit place, like a blown out pinscar that really could have the cam walk out on you)

The more I trad climb the less I seem to extend my placements. Learning to plan your placements and visualize the way the rope will run takes a lot of practice, plus you just place less gear when you get more experience. Also like you said on on crux moves you can't spend as much energy clipping but that also goes back to the first point of planning your placements several moves in advance when possible

Also if you climb in Squamish vs junky oregon basalt you won't need to extend as much because the lines are so much cleaner 

Defaulting to a fully extended sling is very excessive. If they're in a straight line no extension is necessary; watch videos of crack climbers on splitter cracks, you won't see a draw in sight, indeed, even on their harness. Go to a crack climbing crag and same deal-- you'll see loads of cams and no or very few draws. When I head to a crack climbing crag I might bring two or four quickdraws and that's it, and they usually stay in the bag. 

Often a quickdraw on a tripled up alpine is sufficient. Although not uncommon, I put a fully extended draw on maybe 10% of my placements or less. If it doesn't affect rope drag then you're giving yourself a larger fall for no tangible benefit. 

some factors for me:

Will the protection (e.g. a nut or tricam) benefit from more of a downward and less outward pull when falling? Same goes for the cam/tricam potentially pivoting sideways when falling.

The rock/area also makes a big difference - for example in the gunks, it’s often a good idea to extend placements with alpines, or fully extended alpines. Sometime double lengths

The run of the rope over sharp edges

I personally default to extending if I think the placement is sus because there’s less walking, and I hope there will be more down and less outward/sideways forces on the piece.

If the rope is running straight there is really not much reason to extend. Reasons to extend would be- managing rope drag, to keep large cams from walking into flaring cracks, and extend, with at least a draw, under roof cracks so the cam doesn't get inverted and get stuck.

It's just awful when you see beginners extend first peice of gear 10' off the deck, rendering it useless.

Elaine Gilstromwrote:

 the risk isn't so much that the cam could walk out of the crack. It's more so the risk that the cam could walk further into the crack and become irretrievable.

There is an obsession with not getting cams stuck, but I would disagree here. I am usually far more concerned about the piece walking and then not being able to hold a fall. It’s not necessarily that it will walk _out_ of the crack, but often just rotating a cam a bit and moving it a half inch can make the placement not effective.

There are certain cases, maybe there’s one move I want to protect then I am not as worried. But generally speaking cams walking into spots where they won’t work is definitely an underrated concern.

John Sigmonwrote:

There is an obsession with not getting cams stuck, but I would disagree here. I am usually far more concerned about the piece walking and then not being able to hold a fall. It’s not necessarily that it will walk _out_ of the crack, but often just rotating a cam a bit and moving it a half inch can make the placement not effective.

There are certain cases, maybe there’s one move I want to protect then I am not as worried. But generally speaking cams walking into spots where they won’t work is definitely an underrated concern.

This is a good point.  Getting gear back is necessary for keeping costs down, but it's not my primary concern.  I can afford $60 to $80.  I can't afford to get mangled and neither can my family.  If there's a choice between making my 2nd struggle or losing a piece, or taking a giant whip with obstructions to potentially collide with on the way down, then I'm overcamming that bastard and keeping it moving.  Ideally, you have enough gear on you to select a placement in quality rock and make it the right size and place it in such a way that it definitely will hold, and definitely can be cleaned, but that's not always the case.  I suspect this may be more of an issue for newer traddies than seasoned ones, but relevant nonetheless.

extend or not?

Try not to be so dogmatic in your approach, and your questions. Its not one, or the other. You'll learn with time in seat, which cams are more likely to walk in, or out, of a placement. Beware of flares - those are the types of cam placements prone to walking OUT. You should be able to evaluate the walking potential super quick, as you place the cam. Give it a jiggle, eh? See if it wants to walk. If it's solid, that doesn't necessarily mean you shouldn't extend. 

Yet there are times when you might have a walky cam placement and you could really use an extension because of upcoming terrain, but you still don't due to a risky fall situation, as you already pointed out.

The most important thing to understand is evaluation - it is fluid and on-going. Anticipate the need for extension before you even get started on a placement, and be figuring out the next good potential for the next placement, before you get there. I see so many leaders climbing right past their last good, solid placement only to fuck around for 10 minutes, just 5-feet higher. 

You have to open your mind before open eyes will really help. Time in grade and mileage, is the way to get there.

I extend almost everything unless it is a splitter crack or a short crux section. I'm usually climbing 10 feet above each piece--who cares if I fall an extra sling length? I want that piece to not move from how I placed it so it catches a fall and is easy to clean quickly.

I only extend cams to prevent rope drag on wandering pitches, or on really shitty placements. Probably over 75% of my placements are clipped to the cams sling

BJ Nullwrote:

I mostly have BD cams with a moderately loose attached sling...    I was originally taught to extend every cam with an alpine draw to prevent the rope from shaking... walking the cam out.  On a recent lead I was not so confident in my smear and arms tiring on a layback crack, and just clipped directly into the carabiner on the cam.  I did this on a few cam placements on this pitch.  Alas, the cams held fine and my follower did not find any cams that had walked out.     Without extending the cams I significantly reduce the potential distance for a fall and quicker clips, but the CAM may walk... What say ye old tradmasters.... extend or not?

Think about it, your fall isn’t reduced significantly. When in doubt, extend.

Lack of extension may have killed a guy in Seneca recently.

The short answer is "it depends (on many factors)". But I extend much more often than not. The one case I rarely need to extend pieces is on splitter cracks - Indian Creek stuff, for example. 

I'd rather do whatever I can to eliminate my placement moving when I very well may be putting my life on that piece when I climb above it. Another couple feet of fall distance is worth it to me if the piece stays in the orientation I felt good playing it and catches me. 

When in doubt, extend it. And if it's a crux move or a crappy placement and that's the best you've got available, double up / place a backup piece close below it. 

Except for the first piece if extending would mean decking in a fall, and on routes that are pretty much nothing but straight up, I extend no matter what the piece is. The experience of watching a piece pop due to rope movement is one you tend not to forget.

David Appelhanswrote:

I extend almost everything unless it is a splitter crack or a short crux section. I'm usually climbing 10 feet above each piece--who cares if I fall an extra sling length? I want that piece to not move from how I placed it so it catches a fall and is easy to clean quickly.

When there are sections where the pro runs in a straight line the benefit of not extending those pieces is you can get away with carrying way less draws. Like 6 alpines instead of folks who carry 10-12 plus some sport draws. Im with you in that I extend any gear that rope movement will walk into a bad placement. I also extend any nut that could easily get kicked out or plucked from rope movement. 

In typical granite (like Yosemite) I'm maybe 35% no sling (for straight up cracks on the line of the climb), 45% trad draw left tripled up, 20% trad draw extended to full length (route goes at an angle from that placement or placement is not on the main line). 

As mentioned you need to evaluate each placement to keep the rope going in straight line as much as possible to reduce rope drag, look at the potential of the cam to walk, look at what happens if you fall (you may use a short/no sling and put up with rope drag to prevent a fall onto a ledge, etc.

For nuts it's maybe 60% tripled trad draw, 40% extended trad draw. I almost always use a sling on a nut.

I often bring a couple light weight skinny quick draws and if there's no bolts on a trad climb pitch I'll use them instead of a tripled trad draw.

One of the best pieces of advice I got when I was learning to climb was when I asked, How often do I place a piece of pro? Answer, "think about what will happen if you fall at any point while climbing and place your gear accordingly. Near the ground or a ledge place more pieces. Up high with a lot of rope out and a clean fall you can run it out more." Same thing goes for slings, think about if a sling is really needed to keep a piece from walking and if you fall on the piece where will you end up?

Rasputin NLNwrote:

When there are sections where the pro runs in a straight line the benefit of not extending those pieces is you can get away with carrying way less draws. Like 6 alpines instead of folks who carry 10-12 plus some sport draws. Im with you in that I extend any gear that rope movement will walk into a bad placement. I also extend any nut that could easily get kicked out or plucked from rope movement. 

I've thought something was ok not to extend, only to look down and see the cam has moved or worse yet rope drag is killing me on a crux move. I've fallen off moves from horrible rope drag before, but I've never fallen and thought "if I just wasn't so heavy". I'd rather just bring a little extra weight. But I agree you don't actually have to extend every single placement.

If you only bring 6 alpine draws, you can only place 6 nuts. Dyneema alpine draws are pretty light anyway. I also bring some nylon runners over my shoulder. Only a single biner on those, ready to go for cams. I also use them for anchor building (+ the rope) or going direct to rap anchors so I don't need to bring a PAS or cordelette.

Tradibanwrote:Lack of extension may have killed a guy in Seneca recently.

how did lack of extension come in to play?

The ability to read rock is the answer. 

I extend for two reasons

1. Reduce drag 

2. Prevent movement from the optimal position. 

I don't think there's any hard set rule or guideline as it really goes back to one's ability to read the route and execute a plan.  (Probably why there's a smattering of ideas.  Personally this is an area of my climbing that I think a lot about and tend to learn from experiences and adjust.) 

I do recommend climbing with at least 8 alpine draws.  This provides enough to both extend when needed and to place passive pro.