What's wrong (or right?) with the Portland climbing community?

Tradiban wrote:

Sport climbers are like the frog in boiling water, they won’t know it until it’s too late.

I dont think climbers divide so neatly into groups: "sport climbers" "trad climbers" - Everyone I climb with does both.  Is Ondra a Sport climber? cause he nearly onsighted El Cap ground up...

Dan Booklesswrote:

I dont think climbers divide so neatly into groups: "sport climbers" "trad climbers" - Everyone I climb with does both.  Is Ondra a Sport climber? cause he nearly onsighted El Cap ground up...

Sport climbing is a state of mind.

Tradibanwrote:

Sport climbing is a state of mind.

So is sport trolling.

Tradiban wrote:

Let me be more specific:

Yes, there’s no way to achieve a real “community” consensus, so just call it what it is, “mob rule”. That’s why sport climbers need a logic based framework for moving forward, otherwise these scenarios will simply repeat themselves until all the climbing is banned at those cliffs.

Sport climbers are like the frog in boiling water, they won’t know it until it’s too late.

But I don’t really care about any of that, why I’m trying to save sport climbers from themselves is that bolting is the easy way out, you can’t “grow” from it, only shrink.

Namaste

All the examples I've actually seen of this "mob rule" where community discussion is required to figure out what to do with regards to bolts have been on *gasp* trad routes. 

You continue to pretend that sport = bolts and trad = gear for reasons none of us can comprehend. The rules, ethics, norms, whatever, about how to handle these situations are 0% different from sport to trad but whatever helps you sleep at night, home slice. 

Marc801 Cwrote:

So is sport trolling.

I believe Tradi is a Trad Troll-er. I identify as a woodie troll-er and my pronouns are maple/maples

Ricky Harlinewrote:

All the examples I've actually seen of this "mob rule" where community discussion is required to figure out what to do with regards to bolts have been on *gasp* trad routes. 

You continue to pretend that sport = bolts and trad = gear for reasons none of us can comprehend. The rules, ethics, norms, whatever, about how to handle these situations are 0% different from sport to trad but whatever helps you sleep at night, home slice. 

Where are you getting this? Your fishbowl? Sport climbers are bolting trad routes for their own satisfaction, defying logic and norms. Sport climbers are adding bolts to sport climbs, upsetting their own illuminati. Will the madness ever end?

Tradibanwrote:

Where are you getting this? Your fishbowl? Sport climbers are bolting trad routes for their own satisfaction, defying logic and norms. Sport climbers are adding bolts to sport climbs, upsetting their own illuminati. Will the madness ever end?

Is the Sonora Pass, Pinnacles, and Yosemite my fishbowl? And no, these aren't sport climbers, these are trad climbers adding bolts to trad routes. One example was to add bolts to a rappel route to preserve the trees as they were being damaged-- there was a whole extensive conversation and much input gathered before they actually installed them. The horror and tyranny of mob rule in action! 

And the people engaging in this behavior are the crustiest of the crusty traddies who absolutely no one could possibly ever mistake for sport climbers. Multiple of these guys have told me they've never even seen a stick clip. Again, you're the one off living in some weird fantasy land, not myself in my "fishbowl." 

Maybe if you actually gave back to the trad areas you climb in instead of just being a consumer of climbing then you would see that my "fishbowl" is the entirety of trad climbing in North America. Most of the trad climbers in these areas are blissfully unaware of these goings on in these areas I climb in because they don't give a damn about route maintenance. Start caring and start working and start getting involved in these conversations and you'll see the exact same thing going on in your trad fishbowl, I can guarantee you that. 

Ricky Harlinewrote:

Is the Sonora Pass, Pinnacles, and Yosemite my fishbowl? And no, these aren't sport climbers, these are trad climbers adding bolts to trad routes. One example was to add bolts to a rappel route to preserve the trees as they were being damaged-- there was a whole extensive conversation and much input gathered before they actually installed them. The horror and tyranny of mob rule in action! 

And the people engaging in this behavior are the crustiest of the crusty traddies who absolutely no one could possibly ever mistake for sport climbers. Multiple of these guys have told me they've never even seen a stick clip. Again, you're the one off living in some weird fantasy land, not myself in my "fishbowl." 

Maybe if you actually gave back to the trad areas you climb in instead of just being a consumer of climbing then you would see that my "fishbowl" is the entirety of trad climbing in North America. Most of the trad climbers in these areas are blissfully unaware of these goings on in these areas I climb in because they don't give a damn about route maintenance. Start caring and start working and start getting involved in these conversations and you'll see the exact same thing going on in your trad fishbowl, I can guarantee you that. 

Adding a bolt to a trad climb automatically makes a person a sport climber. It takes just one cowardly act and the damage is done.

Devin Hanes wrote:

The epitome of pathetic entitlement.

The bolter agreed to remove the bolts when the FA cried, you have no idea what you're even talking about. It wasn't put up in good style, and it wasn't a trad route it was a mixed route. Troll on.

Since when is a mixed route automatically not considered to be a trad route? It is a matter of how the routes were established, not just the protection that is used on them. There are trad routes, many of of them, with bolts providing the only protection—established on the lead and almost invariably run out.

Devin Hanes wrote:

The epitome of pathetic entitlement.

The bolter agreed to remove the bolts when the FA cried, you have no idea what you're even talking about. It wasn't put up in good style, and it wasn't a trad route it was a mixed route. Troll on.

The FA removed the bolts, and the bolter cried about it on mp.

Tradibanwrote:

Adding a bolt to a trad climb automatically makes a person a sport climber. It takes just one cowardly act and the damage is done.

Ah yes, it would be far better to wait until the tree is dead and there isn't anything to rappel off of before rappel bolts are installed. Such cowards installing bolts to prevent the inevitable destruction of trees which would then require installing bolts anyway. 

We're so lucky to have you to navigate us through these moral quagmires and to call cowards the legends and the people who actually do the work of preserving trad instead of just talking about it online. 

Ricky Harlinewrote:

Ah yes, it would be far better to wait until the tree is dead and there isn't anything to rappel off of before rappel bolts are installed. Such cowards installing bolts to prevent the inevitable destruction of trees which would then require installing bolts anyway. 

We're so lucky to have you to navigate us through these moral quagmires and to call cowards the legends and the people who actually do the work of preserving trad instead of just talking about it online. 

Trad climbers know how to use a tree as an anchor without killing it. Tis a lame excuse to install bolts.

Tradibanwrote:

Trad climbers know how to use a tree as an anchor without killing it. Tis a lame excuse to install bolts.

Next!

But they don’t. 

John Clarkwrote:

But they don’t. 

Those are sport climbers masquerading as trad climbers, and you know it.

They are easy to spot with their brightly colored helmets, walkie talkies, shorts and sense of entitlement.

Ezra Hendersonwrote:

The FA removed the bolts, and the bolter cried about it on mp.

The retro-bolter lives in Arkansas now, and hasn't once participated in the MP debate

Tradibanwrote:

Those are sport climbers masquerading as trad climbers, and you know it.

They are easy to spot with their brightly colored helmets, walkie talkies, shorts and sense of entitlement.

or Trad climbers with a Sport-climber mindset ;-)

bryans wrote:

Well, my hat is off to Kyle Tarry with the prediction that this thread would turn lame.

The thread turned lame when YOU blamed the whole Portland community for actions of a few individuals, and then decided to rehash topic that has constantly devolved into organic fertilizer slinging each and every time.

Frankly, all the evils of retro bolting were undone when the FA-ist removed bolts. Not quite sure why the poor 71yo white male had to do - were you not available? Case closed, move on to the next snow flake meltdown - which, I believe is the 100% probability that tomorrow someone is going to retro bolt Bachar-Yerian because someone else added bolts to an existing trad route somewhere.

Apparently only fritz and I climbed this weekend! Hope you guys got out!

bryans wrote:

I hope you feel better now. I think it's helpful to "out" the actions and consequences of retro bolting routes and you are free to disagree with my decision to do so.

 And exactly who is the snowflake here? Help me out. I started a discussion about a trivial local issue (3 bolts on 25 feet of crack) because the issue(s) of ownership/community/history/ahistory interest me. I put up routes, some have bolts and some do not, and so I wonder what I would do if one of my routes sprouted bolts. The notion that the actions I do (and don't) take may be simply placeholder decisions "the community" can overrule in the form of one person unilaterally adding bolts is not something I worried about 15, 10 or even 5 years ago. But now there seems to be an emphasis on safety and convenience and intersectionality (I think this means referencing race and class and land stealing in an overt attempt to shame and bully the perceived dominant race/class/gender) that leads to people adding bolts to routes to conform them to the lowest common denominator of access and ease. Which kinda makes a mockery of the time, effort and mental energy people put into their routes. It's like if Spotify decided to change all the lyrics in your favorite songs so they would offend no one, and the instrumental sections were removed to appeal to "the current community's" shorter attention spans, since god forbid they take or leave something as it is was intended - that sure would make it a weird time to be a songwriter, wondering if your songs would be edited against your will and at the whim of whoever decides they are "the current community."

I can't be the only person putting up routes who wonders about these things, though if I understand you, MP is the wrong place to look for intelligent discourse. (And this thread supports that conclusion)

The snowflake aspect is the fact you clearly dont wanna have a discussion you just want people to agree with you. Like I said earlier, you are saying the FA is right no matter what. You are really concerned about "your" routes. If someone went out and turned a 12+ I bolted into a 10d, I wouldn't lose a single night of sleep over it. 

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

The snowflake aspect is the fact you clearly dont wanna have a discussion you just want people to agree with you. Like I said earlier, you are saying the FA is right no matter what. You are really concerned about "your" routes. If someone went out and turned a 12+ I bolted into a 10d, I wouldn't lose a single night of sleep over it. 

I wouldn't be so quick to judge puppy.  You tend to 'debate' in such fashion.