Sleeping Lion (5.15c) - FA Sharma

All I want are specifics, otherwise the claim can't lead to a productive conversation. There are things in the gunks that I can clearly point to and say "that hold is chipped, it is not natural". There are climbs in various limestone crags that I can say "this pocket was drilled out (or filled in)", or "this finger jug was created using ac100". I can flap my arms and say "the route is manufactured!!!! Bad!! Evil!!" but that means a broad spectrum of things to different people. Like, plenty of stuff in Yosemite goes because of piton scars. In one way or another, it is manufactured. Is anyone running around screaming that Tommy FA'd a manufactured route?

J T wrote:

Additionally, this thread is honestly the first time I’ve ever heard anyone accuse Sharma of manufacturing routes whereas Louie has at least 20 threads just on MP in the last few years and has literally been dubbed “Gluey Louie”. I’m not sure the two are comparable. 

There are a lot more folks on Mountain Project climbing 5.11-5.13 in Wyoming than there are folks who are climbing 5.15 in Spain, to be fair. 

J T wrote:

I agree, but from an editorial/media standpoint I would argue that a title/article accusing Sharma of manufacturing the worlds hardest climbs would garnish just about as much attention. I think people would be equally invested and argumentative on the internet.

Strong point!

J T wrote:

Even within your examples there is still gray area.

Oh I guess what I was trying to get at was that it's a _huge_ gray area that is impossible to talk about with specifics. 100% agreeing with you. 

who was this about?

abandon moderation wrote:

My guess is, we won't get it. There's only a few elite level climbers getting on these routes and doing something to torpedo another pro climbers career is probably bad form and a good way to have your own damaged.

Meh. I’m not sure that entirely true. Elite climbers get called out from time time. The problem is it happens less because they have more to lose and are under a larger microscope, but it definitely happens. Whether it be for cheating in comps, bullying other climbers, or a perceived mis-grading of a routes for clout (Akira). It happens. 

I also don’t think this would “torpedo” Sharma’s career lol he owns multiple gyms and just had an entire show On HBO. 

Considering there was a Reel Rock feature film about La Dura Dura about a decade ago now, and none of it came up, likely no one is interested in talking.

I agree…or that it being completely manufactured isn’t true. If it had gone against local ethics or was completely manufactured I’m fairly confident that it would have come to light by now. Like I said, a polarizing topic combined with one of the most popular climbers is going to equal attention. 

Is this for real?  It seems like good ol' fashioned misinformation.   

So one of the most famous climbers in the world,  in some of the most famous climbing areas in the world, has been routinely manufacturing routes and no one has any proof?  All of the top pros that supposedly know are being hushed by.... the Industry? By Chris' thugs?  By the big mainstream climbing media? Who is silencing them?  And not a single lurking Gumby has been able to video him chipping and post it to TikTok/ Instagram?  Seems like an easy way to get a bunch of likes. I have never been to the areas where he has put up the supposed chipped routes but aren't they pretty popular and crowded areas? Seems like it would be hard to hide the chisel and hammer blows from the others in the area unless he was being stealthy and did it at night or something.  I am not wanting to debate the topic of chipping, I am just honestly curious as to how this could go under the radar for so long if it is true. The fact that the guy who posted about this created an account 2 days ago seems to be the best evidence I have so far as to what is going on but of course I could be wrong.  

And now we are mentioning politics of sorts. I give this either 8 more pages or locked by the end of the day

Go Back to Super Topowrote:

And now we are mentioning politics of sorts. I give this either 8 more pages or locked by the end of the day

"Of sorts", yes you are correct, there are many different "sorts", especially for the easily distracted folks who have nothing better to contribute. So, to keep things on topic, I made a change to my wording to accommodate those that chase squirrels. 

You don't have to look very hard to find first hand accounts of chipping on elite routes in Margalef, straight from the pros on the routes- Megos, Ondra, Scarth-Johnson.  Importantly, to my knowledge at least, none of these climbers point a finger at Chris Sharma.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd5GcTKXF9Y

https://www.climbing.com/news/alex-megos-climbs-new-5-15b-margalef-spain/

https://gearjunkie.com/climbing/hardest-climbing-grade-controversy-explained

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/119016938/chipping-in-europe

https://climbingzine.com/to-chip-or-not-to-chip-by-adam-ondra/

Andy Shoemakerwrote:

You don't have to look very hard to find first hand accounts of chipping on elite routes in Margalef, straight from the pros on the routes- Megos, Ondra, Scarth-Johnson.  Importantly, to my knowledge at least, none of these climbers point a finger at Chris Sharma.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd5GcTKXF9Y

This alludes to the chipping happening after it was put up/after Scarth-Johnson first started trying it, not during development (gaucho and victimas). Moot point when discussing Sharma chipping.

https://www.climbing.com/news/alex-megos-climbs-new-5-15b-margalef-spain/

Megos does not confirm or deny chipping and said that the holds that "eroded" the route maybe changed the grade a 1/2 grade. Also happened after development. Moot point when discussing Sharma chipping.

https://gearjunkie.com/climbing/hardest-climbing-grade-controversy-explained

Akira was put up 30 years ago and comes from a different time than from Sharma's development. Apples to orange IMO. Unless there was another route they mentioned that I missed. Moot point when discussing Sharma chipping.

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/119016938/chipping-in-europe

This thread contains less info that the one we are currently commenting on...Super moot point when discussing Sharma chipping.

https://climbingzine.com/to-chip-or-not-to-chip-by-adam-ondra/

While he mentions Margalef, there is no mention of any Sharma routes and primarily focuses on France and using glue to reinforce holds in Spain. Mostly moot point when discussing Sharma chipping.

Overall, I've noticed a couple things:

a) it seems the most evidence the internet detectives can come up with are routes that were altered AFTER development

and

b) this is such a good troll job. Trevor take note

Not Not MP Adminwrote:

a) it seems the most evidence the internet detectives can come up with are routes that were altered AFTER development

and

b) this is such a good troll job. Trevor take note

Totes, like I said- the only folks claiming Sharma is defacing the wall chipping are poster Matthis Dannon (account created same day as their post) and Alex Huber.  Huber seems like a decently reputable guy.  But in the brief interview he offers no evidence... So... I'm not taking down my Sharma posters.

It is a big enough issue that Adam Ondra decided he wanted to pen a letter about it to publish. 

"Unfortunately, there are still a lot of routes being put up every year with very obvious chipping—even old-school straightforward drilled pockets, creating ladderlike climbs."

I dream about the day when I'm invited to be one of Chris' Thugs.

this essay is so good, hopefully cameron burns doesn’t mind if it gets posted in full. this chipping for fame issue has been around since at least Rock n’ Ice 1992 (rip fair mag) 

Cleaning is not chipping. Chipping is creating a man made route where one doesn't exist. Chipping is cheating

look out it's Chris Sharma's Thugs

we'll mess you up man! 

Long Rangerwrote:

we'll mess you up man! 

Who is the guy on the right?

Tradibanwrote:

Who is the guy on the right?

I think that's Norman Montes. 

Aidan Maguirewrote:

Cleaning is not chipping. Chipping is creating a man made route where one doesn't exist. Chipping is cheating

I dunno. Some of the choss I bolt, I can’t t tell if I’m cleaning the route or manufacturing the belay stance. Sometimes the route looks wildly different once I’m done with it.