You've got 15l to fit gear for an alpine linkup with a possible/likely bivvy. What do you pack?

Last year I trimmed my gear down to the point where my 35l pack was feeling pretty empty when I went out for some summertime mountaineering trips. This plus the fact my partner has caught me up in her ultra training plan means I've been looking at my 15l running/day bag and wondering what I can get away with.

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The outline: Longer distance (for me) linkup of "non technical" peaks, where there may be fixed rappels and steep snow, but no roped up ascending. Likely bivvy. Elevation 0-2500m 

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My gear list:

Mammut nordwand 15l pack

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Tech gear:

35m petzl purline

35m 2mm dyneema tag

Edelred mago 8

Locking biners (2?)

120cm sling

Petzl Ride axe

Petzl leopard crampons

Helmet

Petzl fly harness

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Clothes, worn:

Undies

Socks

Running shorts

Tech shirt

Sun hoodie

Sunglasses

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Clothes, packed:

Thermal underwear

Dry socks

Puffy

Buff

Toque

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Bivvy/misc:

First aid kit

Headlamp + battery

Inreach

Sleeping bag liner - haven't actually bivvied in just this. Alternative would be bivvy bag or reflective blanket.

Foamie - I'm not sure about this, even my shortened thermarest z lite is rather huge and awkward to carry. Maybe if I chop it a bit widthwise. 

Phone

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Appropriate food + water, purification tablets if I don't trust water source.

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All of this can pack in my bag, with the axe, rope, helmet, and foamie on the outside. Am I missing anything? Have unnecessary gear? 

You could get a thermarest uberlight if you'd like to save space and count grams. 6oz for a small. The downsides are the durability and price compared to a foamie

I would definitely opt for a reflective survival bag as opposed to a sleeping bag liner, the wind could be a real killer if in just the liner. If you are always with someone else it would make sense to have a two person bag.

The 2mm dyneema sounds like a cluster fuck imo but up to you. If you can find your self a source of  aerogel insulation for homes that could be cut to slide into the back of ur pack, it starts as thin as 2mm if you can find it. I believe aspen aerogel the leading brand. 

I’m amazed you can fit all that in a 15L pack. I clearly need to up my organization game

Very relevant video:

https://youtu.be/c1grtwLD50s

This is Vitaly's gear list for big Sierra ridge traverses.

that guy named sebwrote:

I would definitely opt for a reflective survival bag as opposed to a sleeping bag liner, the wind could be a real killer if in just the liner. If you are always with someone else it would make sense to have a two person bag.

The 2mm dyneema sounds like a cluster fuck imo but up to you. If you can find your self a source of  aerogel insulation for homes that could be cut to slide into the back of ur pack, it starts as thin as 2mm if you can find it. I believe aspen aerogel the leading brand. 

Yeah I always have a reflective survival blanket in my fak, agreed wind would suck. 

Not sure on the tag either, I just have a bunch from some splicing projects. The alternative would be an escaper but I don't have one of those. I do fiddle with large amounts of small cord from tagging highlines so I have some organization tricks. 

Aerogel sounds cool I'll look into it. 

John Edwinwrote:

I’m amazed you can fit all that in a 15L pack. I clearly need to up my organization game

Thanks. I'm not particularly fit so I always do my best on hikes and skis to cheat and not carry excess shit. It's amazing what a bit of suffering can do.

Gear minus helmet, inreach, sunnies. FAK has water tablets, large reflective blanket included... Could trim some misc bandages and or sam splint out of it but not really something I'm keen on.

Space left available for food. A liter or two? Front pockets of vest will be for water and snacks; I typically don't carry more than 500ml water. A stick of butter and cheese goes a long way for calorie density. The crampons take up a very large amount of space inside but I want to minimize things on the outside of the bag. Thinking of 3d printing clips for them to keep them together maybe.

Gotta figure out something for the mat. Maybe cut it on the inside of the logo stamp, would mean I can strap it across the bottom of the bag instead of inline with the axe. Too much stuff on the outside compromises the whole point of taking a running style bag.

Use two large garbage bags.  Weigh next to nothing. . . 

Erik Jwrote:

I'm not particularly fit...

...I typically don't carry more than 500ml water. A stick of butter and cheese goes a long way for calorie density. 

I'm not fit either, didn't realize it was due to the sticks of butter and cheese I was eating while summiting without water!  ;)

Anyway, your minimalist approach is inspiring! 

You should make a LighterPack.com list. Random ex from google: https://www.lighterpack.com/r/7pfj9v

Helps you get an idea of everything's weights and compare different items.

Sleeping bag liner alone would not be suitable as a bivvy, it wont block wind. Wind jacket and wind pants alone would do far, far more to trap heat than a sleeping bag liner and would probably weigh similar or less. Minimal rain layers would be better, ultramarathoners have pushed weights down on a lot of these items and choices up.

UL fleece-like layer such as a polartec alpha direct such as Senchi Designs, or something else like Kuiu Peloton 97 would be really handy to get some loft to trap heat.

Either way, you need some sort of bivvy bag to further block wind and trap heat.

SOL Emergency Bivvy is very small and light, would trap condensation, but for 1 night, may be worth the discomfort for the weight savings? They have breathable models which are heavier, like the weight of your sleeping bag liner.

Many UL bivvy options out there from cottage ultralight hiking brands, or you can sew your own with for instance silnylon bottom and 10-20d breathable top, but those are better for protecting a sleeping bag, stupid on their own as a minimal sleep system in which sounds like freezing conditions.

Sounds like you are dependent on snow, melt, springs for water. If water is always close, carrying only 500ml could be OK, but damn. You should make sure to plan out what the longest potential distance would be between water sources, then assume the possibility of something unexpected happening like no snow where expected, spring is just thick mud with a dead animal carcass in it, etc...

Desert Rock Sports and Jimmy Strange had a lot of good info, so ditto what they said (except Senchis cuz they seem too fragile too me). Drop the sam splint and the tech layer (maybe the extra socks too, depending on trip length and dryness). Definitely reconsider the sleeping bag liner, maybe consider some of the stuff Cumulus makes.

In terms of sleeping pads, another alternative to the zlite is a short Xlite. Wont pop nearly as easily as an Uberlite, it's a very similar  weight (7-8 oz), and it's the most packable solution I've found (practically fist sized). Plus they're on sale on mountainsteals for an additional 25% off the sale price. Put your pack and/or rope under your feet and sleeping pad for warmth and protection. Whatever your sleep setup is, TEST IT BEFORE USING IT. A sleeping bag liner and thin foam/short pad sound great on paper until you're shiver bivying at 4am.

if youre looking to cut "unnecessary" ounces, ditch the rappel device and rap on a munter, or even dulfer (and can lose the harness as well!).  For calories, cut out regular food and carry a bodybuilding weight gain powder.   I favor Optimum Nutrition Serious Mass - mixed at "half-strength", about 1000-calories per cup of coffee or hot chocolate.  if youre concerned about your foamie, leave it out and sit on your rope & gear.  If you'll have snow, carrying a canister stove will be lighter than carrying water - and a fuel canister will yield more water from snow than you could comfortably carry.  If your first aid kit is more than a few aspirin & bandaids, you're carrying too much for this type of endeavor.  one of my long-term partners (forty years) an md who has taught "mountain medicine" for the AMGA, says he carries his first aid kit "between my ears".   one thing you appear to have overlooked - raingear.  there are plenty of ultralight rain jackets out there; this is not worth skimping on.  and a knife to whittle tinder for a fire if you've opted to go without raingear and need to stave off hypothermia.

-Haireball

• I ditch the first aid kit and wrap a couple yards of leukotape over a chopped down bamboo skewer, and carry a few pills of ibuprofen. The leukotape is great for blisters and cuts, and you can tear it without scissors. 
• I rarely carry an extra pair of socks, and I also skip the toque and just go with a buff.
• I personally would not sleep in only a sleeping bag liner, and would ditch the space blanket.  I own the MSR Pro Bivy, which is nice.  The Samaya bivy looks really sexy. 
• The Thermarest Uberlite was mentioned above.  I've literally gone through 4 of them while babying them in very very short periods of time.  100% would not recommend.
• You may want to check out the half sized NeoAir XLite sleeping pad (link).  It looks like Thermarest may have discontinued it, but it's still available in a few places.  It's probably lighter than your cut down Z, higher in R val, and certainly less bulky.

Jimmy Strange wrote:

Z Lites are just 2mm foam formed to look thicker, making them bulky. A con in my opinion, as the dimples achieve nothing but to collect precip and gravel. A spec cut bit of good flat foam will be warmer and packs much smaller.

Is there any truth to this? I use a cut in half Z lite as a torso length sleeping pad and feel like it's pretty warm and comfy.

I dont have much to contribute as this seems highly personal preference and what gear you currently have and/or are willing to buy, however, I've used my BD Distance 15 pack (very similar) with pretty good success in a similar way. There is some daisy chains on the back of your pack which if you strung some bungee cord through could be useful. I also found some creative ways with my BD 15 to carry gear, for instance, there are pole sleeves down the sides which are kind of dead space. I was able to stuff a good 5-10 bars in each side so that took care of my snacks and then just freeze-dried meals in the main compartment. 

I was able to fit the following for fast and light overnights without technical gear (YMMV).

• 20F quilt, regular length
• Thermarest Neoair - also regular length
• 900ml titanium pot, stove, and canister inside
• small FAK
• wind pants, OR helium rain jacket
• light micro-grid fleece layer, synthetic puffy, and thermal bottoms

With probably another 3-5L to spare for food or other layers, crampons, etc. It worked surprisingly well, but I didn't carry any technical gear. If I did I could strap a small rope on the outside, and probably wear my harness with the gear but that might be annoying.

Looking at your list I personally wouldn't sleep in the sleeping bag liner. It can get cold at 2500m overnight. A 40-30F quilt would compress almost as small and be far warmer. That, or pack down pants and a jacket for a more versatile system.

Thermarests can be super small now - my neo air x-lite packed down to the size of a 500ml nalgene, I'd definitely swap the z-lite for something like that (even torso length).

A small tarp can go a long way and is versatile - string it above your head, burrito yourself in it, use it as a groundsheet. It'd probably be lighter than a bivy unless it was from a cottage manufacturer and pack as small.

Mike Jwrote:

Is there any truth to this? I use a cut in half Z lite as a torso length sleeping pad and feel like it's pretty warm and comfy.

It's kinda true, what it misses out on is that every ridge is like 2cm long, as long as the ridges aren't crushed completely flat you will have a lot of foam between you and the ground it's the same reason why the Ridgerest is ribbed. The ribs are also needed for the reflective coating to work, needs an air gap and greater surface area means more chances to get reflected. 

A good high density PU foam is more insulating than the PE foam thermarest use but with so little foam a 10% improvement is going to give minimal real world improvements while it will be warmer for a given thickness it will also be heavier.  

Something like an aerogel fill is what would be needed for any real improvements for a foam pad. 

Jimmy Strange wrote:

That thicker, better quality foam insulates better?

No, I meant, is it true that the dimples achieve nothing? I'm gonna have to do some testing with flat foam.

I know the air mats have come a long way but I don't want worry about it on sharp rocks or sticks or near a fire. I'll stick to foam unless I'm car camping.

Ditch the SAM splint. You can use a piece of your foam mattress, if necessary. Also, check out the SOL emergency bivies. They make a slightly insulated model.