Why has how three piece anchors are taught changed to no longer include an inverted piece?

Multi-pitch situations require the focus to be on a downward pull. If all the lead gear fails, the anchor must hold a downward force and upwards pull isn't a factor. If the leader falls and gear holds, the belay is unaffected as the force comes on the belayer and only indirectly on the anchor. It would suck if the anchor pulled out as a result but wouldn't necessarily be catastrophic. An upward resistant piece would be nice there, for sure. A possible exception would be a fixed-point belay where, even after a leader has placed gear off the belay, the belayer stays in FPB mode and an upward force directly on the anchor results in the case of a fall. The conventional wisdom for FPBs is that they are done off two solid bolts at a minimum so upwards-resistant gear isn't a factor.

I think that often the chance of a leader fall being likely should prompt you to use a upward piece, and/or a chariot belay so that there is more rope in the system, the belayer CAN get pulled up to help dissipate some force without just getting slammed against the wall which can happen a couple of feet up off a normal belay.

You can also talk about direct belays off the anchor so the anchor sees the force and the belayer doesn't get thrown around.

Here's an example of a situation that happened to a friend.

On a multi pitch where the belay was a sling on a spike, a small nut and a hex all protecting a downward pull, the leader climbed up the next section and when they fell, they pulled the belay up which ripped the gear out. The top gear then failed. Fortunately, there were two pieces below that. However, if that top gear had been the first piece, they both would have been flying down the previous two pitches..

Tim Parkinwrote:

Here's an example of a situation that happened to a friend.

On a multi pitch where the belay was a sling on a spike, a small nut and a hex all protecting a downward pull, the leader climbed up the next section and when they fell, they pulled the belay up which ripped the gear out. The top gear then failed. Fortunately, there were two pieces below that. However, if that top gear had been the first piece, they both would have been flying down the previous two pitches..

This is the scenario I had in mind but dismissed because it is only relevant in the case your first piece holds while transferring sufficient upward force to the anchor to pull it, but then fails. For an anchor build with well placed cams this is improbable, but if your only options are passive downward pull only pieces, you better make sure the first piece you place is rock solid 

Tim Parkinwrote:

Here's an example of a situation that happened to a friend.

On a multi pitch where the belay was a sling on a spike, a small nut and a hex all protecting a downward pull, the leader climbed up the next section and when they fell, they pulled the belay up which ripped the gear out. The top gear then failed. Fortunately, there were two pieces below that. However, if that top gear had been the first piece, they both would have been flying down the previous two pitches..

Classic do-not-fall situation. Sure an upward-pull piece would have been helpful but even better would have been a much more solid anchor and an understanding that falling was simply not an option. Sounds like a UK route to me as most American routes lack "sling on a spike" belays.

If the belayer is being pulled upward, that means a piece of lead pro is holding.  The team will remain attached to the cliff even if the entire anchor subsequently fails.  Nightmare scenario obviously and does not account for a piece of lead pro taking some load and THEN failing, after the upward pull damage has been done.  Its just the first thought that comes to mind when people talk about upward pull pieces in anchor.

Nathan Mwrote:

If the belayer is being pulled upward, that means a piece of lead pro is holding.  The team will remain attached to the cliff even if the entire anchor subsequently fails.  Nightmare scenario obviously and does not account for a piece of lead pro taking some load and THEN failing, after the upward pull damage has been done.  Its just the first thought that comes to mind when people talk about upward pull pieces in anchor.

Yeah this clarifies the point well I think! 

I think my take away from this is that I'm mostly going to be installing inverted pieces when 1) I weigh much more than my belayer AND 2a) there is bad pro at the start of the next pitch, or 2b) I think there is a very serious chance of me falling with only one or two pieces in at the start of the pitch. 

I have decided I will build three pieces anchors as normal and then when conditions based on the above criteria dictate an inverted piece is a good idea I will try to add an inverted piece once the follower arrives using a piece unlikely to be needed on the next pitch. If I'm able to get a bomber bottom piece in a horizontal or pocket than the inverted piece is no longer necessary. 

This thread has truly been one of my best experiences on the Proj, can't thank everyone enough. 

Ricky Harlinewrote:

...when conditions based on the above criteria dictate an inverted piece is a good idea I will try to add an inverted piece once the follower arrives using a piece unlikely to be needed on the next pitch. 

Perhaps, but basically use whatever you need to use to prevent catastrophe.

Marc801 Cwrote:

Perhaps, but basically use whatever you need to use to prevent catastrophe.

Sure, absolutely. A piece of advice I've taken to heart since my very first trad course I took four or five years ago is to not place bad pieces as they're pointless. I've violated that principle on occasion while scared shitless on lead, but I certainly wouldn't do so in the context of building an anchor. Cheers!

Ricky Harlinewrote:

Sure, absolutely. A piece of advice I've taken to heart since my very first trad course I took four or five years ago is to not place bad pieces as they're pointless. I've violated that principle on occasion while scared shitless on lead, but I certainly wouldn't do so in the context of building an anchor. Cheers!

I think we all have. I once used a #4 RP to "protect" an 80' slab run-out.

There are also times you can be safe, but very unhappy, if you don't have an upward pull piece. I was belaying in the middle of a multipitch and I was standing/weighing the anchor on a very small ledge. The pitch climbed up and left in a way that my leader's first piece was a few feet to my left, off the ledge, and maybe 5 or so feet up. He fell multiple times as he worked the route and I kept being pulled off my feet. By this point he had at least 5 pieces in the route, but if the anchor did blow, I was going to be hanging in the air away from the wall and about 15 feet under the first piece. We could have easily placed an upward pull piece.

Anyways, there are many reasons to place an upward pull piece. There are often many situations where it will have no benefit. But often the price of placing one is relatively low and it might just give you some warm fuzzy feelings or make your life easier by keeping you in place.

It helps to know why one would put in an inverted piece, or a piece that would hold an upward pull.  Sure, it doesn't hurt to have one, but the primary reason one would be employed is if some of the pieces in the rest of the anchor wouldn't be conducive to the loading direction if the belayer were to get pulled above them in the event of a big weight mismatch between climber and belayer or in the event of a massive whipper that generates a lot of force.  

However, if one knows why something is being done, then other solutions can be employed to mitigate this potential.  For example, whenever possible, I build an anchor well above my belay stance.  this not only ensures that there's a very low probability that I'll be pulled above the anchor hard enough that it'll cause passive pieces to pull out, but it also allows a more dynamic belay- provided that I have line-of-sight of my climber and can deliberately employ one.  It isn't always possible, or necessary, but it's nice to know that a simple solution exists so that it can be employed if needed, and if the circumstances allow for it.  The same can be said for a variety of things in climbing.  Little "hacks" that can make all the difference.

Similar tactics can be employed from the ground.  Often I see people use Ohms, and that's great that there's a piece of gear that helps, but it's heavy, and it's pricey.  Another solution in the scenario of light belayer/heavy climber belaying single pitch from the ground is to take the end of the rope, tie it into a loaded pack, and then have a few feet of slack (e.g. 5 to 8 feet or so) that goes back into the belay loop of the belayer.  That way the lighter belayer can still be pulled upward, but at a point, the weight of the pack will be incorporated so as to give a more gradual arrest to the fall, while still mitigating the risk of the belayer being yanked upward all the way to the first bolt.

TLDR:  Knowing the "why" is more important than knowing the "how" because it allows for a greater number of configurations, and more creative solutions that don't require any extra, single-use gear to mitigate risk in a variety of scenarios.

Ricky Harlinewrote:

Yeah this clarifies the point well I think! 

I think my take away from this is that I'm mostly going to be installing inverted pieces when 1) I weigh much more than my belayer AND 2a) there is bad pro at the start of the next pitch, or 2b) I think there is a very serious chance of me falling with only one or two pieces in at the start of the pitch. 

I have decided I will build three pieces anchors as normal and then when conditions based on the above criteria dictate an inverted piece is a good idea I will try to add an inverted piece once the follower arrives using a piece unlikely to be needed on the next pitch. If I'm able to get a bomber bottom piece in a horizontal or pocket than the inverted piece is no longer necessary. 

Also, I won't fall as much.

This thread has truly been one of my best experiences on the Proj, can't thank everyone enough.

Fixed it for you!

Kevin DeWeese wrote:

As with all translations of the textbook to the rock, It's worth considering Ricky that this last week when we climbed a 10 pitch route together, how many of the belay stations would have supported adding a piece to mitigate an upward pull, and (much more importantly) how much longer would each of the anchors taken to construct combined with the time to search out those stations that would allow such placements should we have demanded such a setup for each anchor across those 10 pitches? Especially when almost all of those anchors were constructed with cams. 

This.

Jake woowrote:

There are also times you can be safe, but very unhappy, if you don't have an upward pull piece. I was belaying in the middle of a multipitch and I was standing/weighing the anchor on a very small ledge. The pitch climbed up and left in a way that my leader's first piece was a few feet to my left, off the ledge, and maybe 5 or so feet up. He fell multiple times as he worked the route and I kept being pulled off my feet. By this point he had at least 5 pieces in the route, but if the anchor did blow, I was going to be hanging in the air away from the wall and about 15 feet under the first piece. We could have easily placed an upward pull piece.

This is a good point, but I would describe it as a belayer-tie-down piece rather than an anchor piece.  An upward-pull anchor piece connected to the master point doesn't give maximal comfort to a typical belayer whose waist is below the master point.  Connecting the belayer to that extra piece directly with a PAS/sling would be better from this perspective.

Kevin DeWeese wrote:

As with all translations of the textbook to the rock, it's worth considering Ricky that this last week when we climbed a 10 pitch route together, how many of the belay stations would have supported adding a piece to mitigate an upward pull, and (much more importantly) how much longer would each of the anchors taken to construct combined with the time to search out those stations that would allow such placements should we have demanded such a setup for each anchor across those 10 pitches? Especially when almost all of those anchors were constructed with cams. 

Good point, Kevin. 

However the day after I pulled Ally up two feet up when I fell on top rope. I think if I led the whole thing I would have only have thought about an inverted piece on a pitch or two, but my experiences pulling people up routes is reinforcing my desire to have a completely bomber multidirectional anchor under certain circumstances. 

But I totally get your point, speed and efficiency is also safety. 

@Nathan

with any hope I'll have more falls on gear this year than all my previous years combined. Gonna be a try hard this year. Sometimes on multipitches even! Kinda really wanna go for P2 of central pillar of frenzy this year, probably gonna be a fall fest for this punter 

Kevin DeWeese wrote:

Securing your belayer and building an anchor set for upward pull are two separate things with separate goals.  Let the leader worry about setting up the anchor at the end of the pitch and let the belayer worry about setting up for a leader fall before that leader starts off 

Interesting. I like this. 

Thanks for the good advice as always, Kevin. Appreciate you.