Wet Rock as of 3/22/2023

There's rain and snow out there now.

Was out at Calico Basin, Cowlick Crag practicing AMGA Rock Rescue Drill and the AMGA Adv Rock Course was doing their Rock Rescue Exam on the crag opposite. Precip at these crags started at ~1:20p as grappel, then drizzle. We left around 2p and at that point it was still light drizzle.

(Rock Rescue Drill/Exam is accomplished walking to the top and rapping down to an intermediate anchor and rapping again, no climbing. Hiking in in the morning the ground was obviously not dry from the previous precip and the rocks were pretty obviously wet right under the surface... as you can tell with flaky rock sections, areas of rock that are visibly wet from trapped moisture, etc...)

Desert Rock Sportswrote:

(Rock Rescue Drill/Exam is accomplished walking to the top and rapping down to an intermediate anchor and rapping again, no climbing. Hiking in in the morning the ground was obviously not dry from the previous precip and the rocks were pretty obviously wet right under the surface... as you can tell with flaky rock sections, areas of rock that are visibly wet from trapped moisture, etc...)

You guys try to have it both ways. On one hand you have the often-quoted, likely apocryphal story of someone drilling holes for bolts and finding mud inches inside the rock - a story posted once again in this thread and recently deleted, while on the other hand, you are saying rappelling on "obviously wet" rock to teach a guiding course for money is somehow okay? The hypocrisy is reaching new heights. And by the way, it literally poured rain the day before your class.

How bad was the rain out in red rock? Is it likely not climbable at kraft tomorrow?

Wrong Masswrote:

How bad was the rain out in red rock? Is it likely not climbable at kraft tomorrow?

NO CRIMB FIND NEW HOBBY

Wet Rock Advocates: sandstone turns to mush after it rains, do not touch it

*** Also Wet Rock Advocates: we have paying clients and we have a class to teach, multi-pitch rappelling is okay, we have a permit

Isaac Steinbrunnerwrote:

Here's something like what I would rather see at the top of the MP page for Red Rocks that I wrote up in like 20 minutes.  I guess it's probably too long and people just wouldn't read it but clearly I prefer to read/write long posts.  Obviously it could be improved upon but at least it's closer to the truth and more complete than what's written there right now IMO.

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RAIN AND WET ROCK: IF IT HAS RAINED IN THE PAST MONTH AND YOU ARE CONSIDERING GOING CLIMBING, *OR* IF YOU ARE THINKING ABOUT PLANNING A TRIP TO RED ROCKS, YOU *MUST* READ THIS FIRST

Sandstone becomes fragile when wet.  Climbing on sandstone after it has rained (even if the rock is dry to the touch) is dangerous.  Rock breaking can lead to unexpected falls, rockfall onto belayers/climbers below, bolts pulling from holes, etc.  By the ethics of today's climbing communtiy, it is also immoral.  Key holds can be (and have been!*) pulled off thus changing the nature of routes forever, rock can be ripped out around gear placements, bolt holes grow larger when weighted thus necessitating early replacement, etc.  For both locals and visitors, climbing after rain is wrong.  

HOW TO TELL IF IT IS ALRIGHT TO CLIMB SANDSTONE:

The best test of whether the rock is dry enough to climb at a given location is dry, powdery sand at the base to a depth of 3 inches.  This is because sandstone is like a sponge made of compressed sand.  It can hold water underneath the surface even after the rock is dry to the touch.  It take a similar amount of thermal energy to dry 3 inches of sand at the base as it does to dry the rock enough to be safe to climb.  How long this takes varies widely.  Time in direct sunlight, high temperatures, low humidity, and wind tend to dry the rock faster (and inversely, the lack of any of those factors will increase the time until the rock is climbable).  Rough estimates of how long to wait before climbing after rain [numbers made up but probably already closer than just saying "24 to 72 hours" or "several days"]:

• Sunny location, summertime, light sprinkle (<0.1 inches of rain): 24 hours
• Sunny, springtime, medium rain (0.25 inches): 72 hours
• Shady, early spring, heavy rain (>0.5 inches): 14 days
• etc, etc, etc...

Also note that most climbing areas in Red Rocks receive more rain than is reported in Las Vegas or at the visitor center weather station.  The best source for recent rain accumulation is _______, and assume XYZ% more accumulation at the base of cliffs than reported there.

ALTERNATIVES THAT CAN BE CLIMBED DURING/AFTER RAIN**:

• Gun Club, Lone Mountain, Blue Diamond, Water World, etc.
• Potosi, Charleston
• Lime Kiln, VRG, St. George, Mormon Mountains, Arrow Canyon, Sun City
• etc, etc, etc.

A NOTE TO POTENTIAL TRAVELERS:

If you plan a trip to Red Rocks, you must be prepared for the eventuality that the weather before/during your trip will not be what you had hoped, and that you will not be able to climb sandstone.  It is not acceptable to climb wet sandstone, full stop.  It does not matter that you waited 3 months, bought an expensive plane ticket, and traveled 3,000 miles.  It is not OK to just climb the one classic project you've been looking forward to for so long, and then stop.  If you feel that your trip will be waste if you don't climb wet sandstone, and so you climb wet sandstone, then make no mistake, you are doing something morally wrong.

**Also, be aware that all the non-sandstone alternatives have serious compromises to be aware of (the local limestone crags e.g. Gun Club, Lone Mountain, Blue Diamond are NOT as destination-worthy as Red Rocks, Potosi is colder, Charleston is much colder, Lime Kiln is colder and 2 hours away, VRG has no moderates, etc, etc, etc.)  If you make a trip to Las Vegas and it rains/has rained when you arrive, and you climb limestone the first day of your trip, you may feel disappointed.  This does not excuse you to climb sandstone the following days of your trip.  You may well go home at the end of your trip feeling very disappointed with the entire visit.  Strongly consider this before you commit to traveling to Las Vegas to climb.

*EXAMPLES OF CLIMBS THAT HAVE BEEN HARMED BY BEING CLIMBED AFTER RAIN [with links to forum threads about the damage and the conditions at the time the damage was done]:

-Monkey Bars

-Minstrel in the Gallery

-Steep Thrills

-The Pearl

-etc, etc, etc.

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If this was the information we had gotten before we decided to come here, we probably would have gone somewhere else instead.  And while we haven't climbed sandstone since it first rained this month, I bet there are lots more very much like us who have.  

I’m onboard and all, but god the tone is so off putting 

When I said "they" were doing it at one of Dan's crags, I meant the AMGA Adv Rock Guide Course examiners and students, which are not guides or clients under our permit... and when I mentioned that I was out there at Cowlick, same day, it was not in a guide & client capacity, not activity under our permit... You just assumed that was the case. Maybe you are pissed off at guides in general, I don't know.

The sandstone loses strength when wet, but it does not go straight to mud. Canyoneering in the southwest with bolt anchors wouldn't be much of a thing if that aspect of the strength was that much of a danger... More so its the flow in those canyons where the bolt is a protrusion causing turbulent flow when the canyon is running to wear away at the rock right next to the bolt. You have done some bolting yourself, you know that you place bolts in solid rock, not flaky stuff... though the climbing is often on flaky stuff here in RR... so the logic is... Don't climb and damage the sandstone holds. Dynamic falls and their peak forces on bolts would speed up necessity in rebolting. Trad gear can rip much easier so it has problems of its own.

John, we have had to talk about wet rock day in and day out for months this season. Its been absolutely brutal. We are doing way more to steer people to limestone than you are. If you are particularly annoyed about the different ways people are explaining it, do better yourself, stop fighting with us about it, we are absolutely exhausted and just trying to minimize damage. (before I realized that I'd have to respond to you directly in at least 3 threads... attack someone else, we are tired.)

John Hegyeswrote:

You guys try to have it both ways. On one hand you have the often-quoted, likely apocryphal story of someone drilling holes for bolts and finding mud inches inside the rock - a story posted once again in this thread and recently deleted, while on the other hand, you are saying rappelling on "obviously wet" rock to teach a guiding course for money is somehow okay? The hypocrisy is reaching new heights. And by the way, it literally poured rain the day before your class.

That story is true- it happened when I drilled the replacement anchor for Neon Sunset at Magic Bus back in 2007 or so.

It had been 6 weeks since the last rain, and the bottom inch of the hole was literal mud.

Ymmv.

Cool, so no climbing for six weeks after the rain, or go ahead and rappel in the rain for Climbing Class. YMMV

Random Climberwrote:

That story is true- it happened when I drilled the replacement anchor for Neon Sunset at Magic Bus back in 2007 or so.

It had been 6 weeks since the last rain, and the bottom inch of the hole was literal mud.

Ymmv.

Welcome back, John Wilder! OG wet rock police. How’d that climbing gym thing work out?  

Hope you’re putting the “rad” in Colorado

I get what you are trying to do and I agree wait to climb on wet rock in Vegas until it’s dry, but saying there is no scientific evidence and then saying “rebake the rock” makes you sound like an idiot. The wet rock debate is a classic tragedy of the commons issue and unless you implement an actual wet rock police the issue will continue   

Desert Rock Sportswrote:

Wet Rock Police was great in theory, but poor in practice. Its data comes from a single weather station at the visitor center which typically gets hit much much less than the canyons, and less than calico hills and basin... as well its 24-48h suggestion is just wrong.

"We waited 24 hours." "Wait 24-48 hours before climbing after rain." Hey Wet Rock Police! There is no science that supports waiting 24-whatever hours for the rock to dry. Just because that is what is out there, or that is what you heard, everyone repeats it without question. Literally no science to support it.

Very late to the thread, but seems like I'm getting ragged on for a suggestion that was the status quo 3-4 years ago. D Young & DRS you both seem to have very capable sets of fingers based on your OP & replies - why not email me at grant@wetrockpolice.com so we can work on providing new guidelines instead of dogging on me in a post? Seems like a much more productive activity than what's going on here.

I built the site back in 2019 with the intention of helping inform visitors, some 4 years and a couple thousand dollars in hosting costs later that intention hasn't changed, but I'm just one guy. Reach out to me and let's work on something.

As for the data - yes the visitor station generally gets less rain than calico and can be especially inaccurate for areas further away like black velvet. I've considered using radar in the past but radar comes with it's own inaccuracies, I have something in the works for next season that will potentially help.

I am not sure what to think about this so I will ask here - 

Last Monday I went up to the black corridor and found the ground was wet and even had some pools of water in several spots.  There were ~50 climbers in there and we walked over to sweet pain to climb.  According to the weather reports it hadn't rained in well over a week.  

It makes sense to me that the base of the black corridor takes a long time to dry as it gets so little sun, but it made me wonder if the weather reports missed some rain and if it was OK to climb in there with the ground so wet?   

Mike Kwrote:

I am not sure what to think about this so I will ask here - 

Last Monday I went up to the black corridor and found the ground was wet and even had some pools of water in several spots.  There were ~50 climbers in there and we walked over to sweet pain to climb.  According to the weather reports it hadn't rained in well over a week.  

It makes sense to me that the base of the black corridor takes a long time to dry as it gets so little sun, but it made me wonder if the weather reports missed some rain and if it was OK to climb in there with the ground so wet?   

If you are following Dan Young's rules, Black Corridor will be closed to all climbing, year-round. Sorry, there just doesn't seem like there will be enough solar energy for the climbs to "re-bake back into solid rock".

Mike Kwrote:

I am not sure what to think about this so I will ask here - 

Last Monday I went up to the black corridor and found the ground was wet and even had some pools of water in several spots.  There were ~50 climbers in there and we walked over to sweet pain to climb.  According to the weather reports it hadn't rained in well over a week.  

It makes sense to me that the base of the black corridor takes a long time to dry as it gets so little sun, but it made me wonder if the weather reports missed some rain and if it was OK to climb in there with the ground so wet?   

Don’t mind that - it’s just piss. 

John Hegyeswrote:

If you are following Dan Young's rules, Black Corridor will be closed to all climbing, year-round. Sorry, there just doesn't seem like there will be enough solar energy for the climbs to "re-bake back into solid rock".

OK so you aren't using the wet ground=wet rock idea - so how do you decide when climbing is ok?

I also got to say that I have been to Black Corridor quite a few times and the ground was completely dry.

W Lwrote:

Don’t mind that - it’s just piss. 

Ok, nevermind my dumb questions above as I have just decided never to climb there again :)

These signs have popped up at Kraft parking lot within the last week. Interesting how they categorize sun vs shaded walls and heavy vs light rain. Seems still very open to individual interpretation, but better than nothing. I'm curious where the BLM got its info and guidelines? The small text on the sign says:

Sun facing walls: 24 hours after light rain, 48 hours after heavy rain 

Shaded walls: 48 hours after light rain, 72 hours after heavy rain

Sandstone is fragile and will break when wet. This destroys routes and makes climbing unsafe.

It's extra fun to me as the last time I was in Calico I was caught in quite the deluge which resulted in this:

KrisGwrote:

These signs have popped up at Kraft parking lot within the last week. Interesting how they categorize sun vs shaded walls and heavy vs light rain. Seems still very open to individual interpretation, but better than nothing. I'm curious where the BLM got its info and guidelines? The small text on the sign says:

Sun facing walls: 24 hours after light rain, 48 hours after heavy rain 

Shaded walls: 48 hours after light rain, 72 hours after heavy rain

Sandstone is fragile and will break when wet. This destroys routes and makes climbing unsafe.

It's extra fun to me as the last time I was in Calico I was caught in quite the deluge which resulted in this:

2nd pic is sick