Another Day on Solar Slab: How not to Interact with Your Fellow Climber

Just throwing this out there as a tongue in cheek PSA and on the off chance that 'Timmy' reads mountain project forums and has the self awareness to recognize himself in this parable.  I'm sure I'm not remembering every detail perfectly, but rest assured that the important bits are quite accurate.   Scroll to the bottom for TLDR.

Last Friday, my partner and I left the Oak Creek Trailhead (in the loop) around 800.  Not an early start by any means, but we were okay with what that meant for crowding on our (popular) objective: Johnny Vegas to Solar Slab.  

Shortly after the red dirt descent towards the wash, we encountered two forlorn climbers hiking the other way.  "We bailed.  There are 8 parties on the lower tier right now.  It's grim!"  According to these guys there were two teams of two on both Beulah's Book and Johnny Vegas.  "So you're saying there's no one on the gully?" I half jokingly replied.  It turned out that was exactly the case.  As we tied in at the base, two teams were working there way up Beulah's while another two were stacked up at the 2nd and 3rd belay anchors on JV.  We decided to at least try to see if we could speed around them by simul'ing the gully.  Apparently our discussions and planning carried easily to the ears above us and at one point we heard one of the JV'ers remark to his partner somewhat mockingly: "they think they're going to pass us."

15 minutes later we'd passed them and were basking under the first pitch of Solar Slab proper with clear sailing in front of us (except for my friend and coworker Greg and his partner 2 pitches above) and no sign of anyone behind.  A bit later as I'm sitting on the terrace belaying my partner as she leads the first pitch, one of the climbers from below walks up.  

Me: "It's a party down there!"

Him: "Uh huh." (let's call him 'Timmy,' replies in fully robotic deadpan)

-Silence as I continue belaying-

Timmy: "So, have you done this route before?" (in a tone that was somewhere between unfriendly and annoyed)

Me: "Yep! How about you?" (I didn't go into depth, but to say I've climbed Solar Slab before is a bit of an understatement.  It was the first route I ever bailed off in a rainstorm in 2005 and since then I've probably climbed in 10-20 times including guiding it multiple times, simuling it to approach the Levitation 29/Rainbow Wall/Cloud Tower linkup, and soloing it)

Timmy: "I haven't, but it's well within my wheelhouse." (I shit you not.  Delivered in a tone that was trending further down the spectrum towards annoyed) 

             "We were planning to simul climb."  (I think I was supposed to be impressed by this statement)

             "But now we have to wait for you." (but was definitely unimpressed by this one.  Are you fucking kidding me?!)

Me: "Right on.  Why didn't you simul climb Johnny Vegas?" (they'd clearly been pitching it out and I was honestly curious given the routes are only 1 grade apart.  Had they been simuling I wouldn't have had to put up with this because he'd have already been happily in front of me)

At this point Timmy clearly wasn't expecting this kind of response to his grandiose disclosure of speed climbing aspirations and he proceeded to stumble out a reply that referenced 'his partner' and 'it's 5.7,' but didn't actually provide a compelling answer to the question. (or even really a coherent sentence)  I honestly forget exactly what happened next, but I continued belaying and he continued not being friendly.

Timmy: "Are you guys going to simul climb?" 

Me: "Nope.  We were planning to keep it mellow today." (I may have even said something about how we simul'ed the gully, but that it was only to get up here first.)

Timmy: "Gotcha.  We were really hoping to simul climb." (still 100% surly)

At this point I was pretty over it.  To take a second to step back from the narrative and to step onto my soapbox, this is absolutely not the way you should behave to other climbers.  Clearly Timmy thought he could bully me into letting him pass without at any point acting toward me in a way other than being annoyed by my existence.  Despite the fact that we'd climbed the same amount of cliff in a quarter of the time it took him and his partner to get there.  Lord knows I loath waiting for other climbers, but when I'm in Timmy's shoes, I really do try to be affable and friendly and give them the opportunity to recognize that I'm way faster than they are and let me go first. (or if that's not the case, enjoy the company at the belays until they pull ahead)  I may or may not be successful 100% of the time, but at least I try.

I get it.  Climbing has become vogue.  A climbing doc won on Oscar.  There are now shitty reality TV shows about our sport.  Hand in hand with this is the sad reality that there are now probably too many of us out there.  Evidence is widespread from overflowing parking lots and timed entry reservations to blown out sandstone cracks and incredibly polished feet.  There are certainly too many of us if we behave like jackasses to each other while trying to share our public climbing resources.  If we entirely forgo being friendly in pursuit of our personal goals and agendas, climbing is going to become super unpleasant.  It's really not that hard to smile, say hello, and make an effort to be kind to other human beings before bringing up the topic of how much cooler you are than a random stranger you just met on the side of a cliff.

-Steps off soapbox-

Me: "Right on.  Here's the deal: you're welcome to pass me, but you had better actually be faster than me."

Timmy: "Great.  We'd love to."

Me: "Sounds good.  Here's how this is going to work: she's almost at the anchor.  When she's clipped in, you start going and I'll follow the pitch while you lead it.  That way we both get to keep moving and you can slide by with minimal shenanigans.  But don't make me wait."

Timmy: "Well, we were actually planning to start simul'ing after Pitch 3." (W.T.F.)

Honestly at this point my memory gets pretty fuzzy.  I think somewhere around now he actually took the time to notice the fact that I was wearing approach shoes, there weren't any climbing shoes in sight, (they were back in camp) and wasn't wearing a helmet. Not that that really says much about me other than that I have an unhealthily high risk tolerance for overhead hazard and tender feet, but in my experience, that kind of risk tolerance is generally correlated to competence.  At some point he asks me if I'm a guide, (which was oddly intuitive given I'm entirely un-logo'd that day, not wearing a helmet, and looked somewhat disheveled) says I look really familiar and that we've likely met at an AMGA meeting, (I've never attended an AMGA meeting) and proceeds to take his harness off and pull out a snack as my partner finishes the pitch.  I'm tempted to crack the whip and tell him to start climbing because his window's closing, but am fully over it at this point and decided to just let things be.  At some point the conversation turned toward the party above and I mentioned that I knew one of them and that we worked together.  The last thing I remember as I was halfway up the pitch and climbing out of earshot was him telling another party pulling in from below that "there are two parties of experienced guides up there." (in the self superior tone of a traffic warden) 

Despite our mellow pace, Timmy and his partner never started simul climbing and never came close to catching up to us.  (we were both atop Pitch 3 by the time he made it to the Pitch 1 anchor)  

After topping out and hiking down Painted Bowl, we decided to climb Johnny Vegas on our way back out to the car because it was open and is so fun.

The end.

I said it earlier, but I just want to reiterate for maximum impact: for god's sake be nice to other climbers.  I don't care how badass, right, cool, or godly you think you are, don't think that means you can be a douchbag when interacting with other people.  That is all.

The ones who broadcast how fast they are usually aren't. How obnoxious.

I believe there is a kinder way to deliver the message to be nicer to others.

Andy Eiterwrote:

I believe there is a kinder way to deliver the message to be nicer to others.

100% agree.  It might make me slightly hypocritical, but I wasn't going for kind.  I'm no Ghandi.

Max Tepferwrote:

Just throwing this out there as a tongue in cheek PSA and on the off chance that 'Timmy' reads mountain project forums and has the self awareness to recognize himself in this parable.  I'm sure I'm not remembering every detail perfectly, but rest assured that the important bits are quite accurate.   Scroll to the bottom for TLDR.

Last Friday, my partner and I left the Oak Creek Trailhead (in the loop) around 800.  Not an early start by any means, but we were okay with what that meant for crowding on our (popular) objective: Johnny Vegas to Solar Slab.  

Shortly after the red dirt descent towards the wash, we encountered two forlorn climbers hiking the other way.  "We bailed.  There are 8 parties on the lower tier right now.  It's grim!"  According to these guys there were two teams of two on both Beulah's Book and Johnny Vegas.  "So you're saying there's no one on the gully?" I half jokingly replied.  It turned out that was exactly the case.  As we tied in at the base, two teams were working there way up Beulah's while another two were stacked up at the 2nd and 3rd belay anchors on JV.  We decided to at least try to see if we could speed around them by simul'ing the gully.  Apparently our discussions and planning carried easily to the ears above us and at one point we heard one of the JV'ers remark to his partner somewhat mockingly: "they think they're going to pass us."

15 minutes later we'd passed them and were basking under the first pitch of Solar Slab proper with clear sailing in front of us (except for my friend and coworker Greg and his partner 2 pitches above) and no sign of anyone behind.  A bit later as I'm sitting on the terrace belaying my partner as she leads the first pitch, one of the climbers from below walks up.  

Me: "It's a party down there!"

Him: "Uh huh." (let's call him 'Timmy,' replies in fully robotic deadpan)

-Silence as I continue belaying-

Timmy: "So, have you done this route before?" (in a tone that was somewhere between unfriendly and annoyed)

Me: "Yep! How about you?" (I didn't go into depth, but to say I've climbed Solar Slab before is a bit of an understatement.  It was the first route I ever bailed off in a rainstorm in 2005 and since then I've probably climbed in 10-20 times including guiding it multiple times, simuling it to approach the Levitation 29/Rainbow Wall/Cloud Tower linkup, and soloing it)

Timmy: "I haven't, but it's well within my wheelhouse." (I shit you not.  Delivered in a tone that was trending further down the spectrum towards annoyed) 

             "We were planning to simul climb."  (I think I was supposed to be impressed by this statement)

             "But now we have to wait for you." (but was definitely unimpressed by this one.  Are you fucking kidding me?!)

Me: "Right on.  Why didn't you simul climb Johnny Vegas?" (they'd clearly been pitching it out and I was honestly curious given the routes are only 1 grade apart.  Had they been simuling I wouldn't have had to put up with this because he'd have already been happily in front of me)

At this point Timmy clearly wasn't expecting this kind of response to his grandiose disclosure of speed climbing aspirations and he proceeded to stumble out a reply that referenced 'his partner' and 'it's 5.7,' but didn't actually provide a compelling answer to the question. (or even really a coherent sentence)  I honestly forget exactly what happened next, but I continued belaying and he continued not being friendly.

Timmy: "Are you guys going to simul climb?" 

Me: "Nope.  We were planning to keep it mellow today." (I may have even said something about how we simul'ed the gully, but that it was only to get up here first.)

Timmy: "Gotcha.  We were really hoping to simul climb." (still 100% surly)

At this point I was pretty over it.  To take a second to step back from the narrative and to step onto my soapbox, this is absolutely not the way you should behave to other climbers.  Clearly Timmy thought he could bully me into letting him pass without at any point acting toward me in a way other than being annoyed by my existence.  Despite the fact that we'd climbed the same amount of cliff in a quarter of the time it took him and his partner to get there.  Lord knows I loath waiting for other climbers, but when I'm in Timmy's shoes, I really do try to be affable and friendly and give them the opportunity to recognize that I'm way faster than they are and let me go first. (or if that's not the case, enjoy the company at the belays until they pull ahead)  I may or may not be successful 100% of the time, but at least I try.

I get it.  Climbing has become vogue.  A climbing doc won on Oscar.  There are now shitty reality TV shows about our sport.  Hand in hand with this is the sad reality that there are now probably too many of us out there.  Evidence is widespread from overflowing parking lots and timed entry reservations to blown out sandstone cracks and incredibly polished feet.  There are certainly too many of us if we behave like jackasses to each other while trying to share our public climbing resources.  If we entirely forgo being friendly in pursuit of our personal goals and agendas, climbing is going to become super unpleasant.  It's really not that hard to smile, say hello, and make an effort to be kind to other human beings before bringing up the topic of how much cooler you are than a random stranger you just met on the side of a cliff.

-Steps off soapbox-

Me: "Right on.  Here's the deal: you're welcome to pass me, but you had better actually be faster than me."

Timmy: "Great.  We'd love to."

Me: "Sounds good.  Here's how this is going to work: she's almost at the anchor.  When she's clipped in, you start going and I'll follow the pitch while you lead it.  That way we both get to keep moving and you can slide by with minimal shenanigans.  But don't make me wait."

Timmy: "Well, we were actually planning to start simul'ing after Pitch 3." (W.T.F.)

Honestly at this point my memory gets pretty fuzzy.  I think somewhere around now he actually took the time to notice the fact that I was wearing approach shoes, there weren't any climbing shoes in sight, (they were back in camp) and wasn't wearing a helmet. Not that that really says much about me other than that I have an unhealthily high risk tolerance for overhead hazard and tender feet, but in my experience, that kind of risk tolerance is generally correlated to competence.  At some point he asks me if I'm a guide, (which was oddly intuitive given I'm entirely un-logo'd that day, not wearing a helmet, and looked somewhat disheveled) says I look really familiar and that we've likely met at an AMGA meeting, (I've never attended an AMGA meeting) and proceeds to take his harness off and pull out a snack as my partner finishes the pitch.  I'm tempted to crack the whip and tell him to start climbing because his window's closing, but am fully over it at this point and decided to just let things be.  At some point the conversation turned toward the party above and I mentioned that I knew one of them and that we worked together.  The last thing I remember as I was halfway up the pitch and climbing out of earshot was him telling another party pulling in from below that "there are two parties of experienced guides up there." (in the self superior tone of a traffic warden) 

Despite our mellow pace, Timmy and his partner never started simul climbing and never came close to catching up to us.  (we were both atop Pitch 3 by the time he made it to the Pitch 1 anchor)  

After topping out and hiking down Painted Bowl, we decided to climb Johnny Vegas on our way back out to the car because it was open and is so fun.

The end.

I said it earlier, but I just want to reiterate for maximum impact: for god's sake be nice to other climbers.  I don't care how badass, right, cool, or godly you think you are, don't think that means you can be a douchbag when interacting with other people.  That is all.

So how so you think this story reflects upon you?

So you guys didn’t even simo it??!?!?!  Also can you share more about these climbing reality TV shows? I finished Wednesday and would like to watch something as #Xtrem as my lifestyle. Thanks and good vibes!

Max -- Thanks for the story, and thanks in generall for your contributions and posts, which often illuminate the intricacies of the guiding profession.  I sympathize with the sentiments you express, although I agree with a few others that it was perhaps not the most constructive text.  I'll chalk it up to the understandable need to vent, along with a valuable plea to treat each other well.

It does raise a few interesting points.  Notably, are there any actual rules about who climbs first, gets to pass, and so on?  I don't mean shared cultural norms, good sense principles, or best safety practices...I mean actual laws?

For example, let's say the situation was as you describe, and this other climber decided to just start up the pitch with your partner half-way to the next anchor, increasing the complexity and perhaps the danger for everyone?  It wouldn't be nice, and perhaps it wouldn't be safe, but would it be illegal?

I live and climb in Europe, and this kind of thing is common.  People just climb right through, often clipping your gear.  I think it gets tricky when accidents happen.  I can't think of any examples off the top of my head, but in the snowsports world, here in Switzerland, you can be held legally accountable if you trigger an avalanche above another party.  But what if another party moves underneath you without your control?  I think it's typically applied when, for example, some skiers or riders come in from the top and do something reckless and trigger a slide, but I can see that the arguments could get complicated and one would need experienced people to determine a just outcome. 

What about climbing?  Let's say the other party climbed past you as above, and then triggered rockfall, or fell and hit you or your partner, or in some way caused you or your partner to fall or be injured in some way?  What would happen then?

I wonder if a principle could be applied to th effect of "did this party act in a way inconsistent with the shared practices of this group? or "Did this party act in a reckless way that they should have been able to predict or anticipate given their level of experience?" Could a charge of reckless endangerment be aplied?  I could also see the legal argument that anybody engaging in an activity like climbing accepts risks which includes people climbing above/around you.  I'm not sure how this would play out in court.  

The reverse situation is also interesting.  Let's say you come upon a party moving slowly or having an epic on terrain that is moderate for you, and perhaps there is a time pressure or concern about weather of some other factor.  Does the other party get to dictate whether or not you pass just because they got there first?  You can try to be friendly and accomodating and ask to pass nicely, but isf they say no do you just climb through anyway?  As above, if there is no law and if you don't put them in danger or interfere significantly with them then...?

Basically, in broad terms, in the absence of laws, are people free to do as they please, however offensive others might find their behavior?

Two examples, one anectodal and one personal. 

I read on MP about a team climbing Snake Dike in Yoemite.  Nice weather, crowds, lots of teams, as expected.  They were fast and competent.  They safely passed a couple of teams (if I remember correctly) and then came to a team with a polite yet stubborn belayer who refused to let them pass or even join at the lower anchor.  For many pitches, all the way to the top, the leader of the fast party just waited one move below the anchor for the slower team to move off and then continued.  I find that ridiculous.  I am willing to move heavan and earth, wake up at whatever hour, hike any distance, to be free from crowds on climbs, and I generally ascribe to the first come first serve principle, but sometimes it just doesn't make sense.  Being first does not or should not in my view give you the absolute right to be a stubbon jerk and fuck up other peoples days.  

I was climbing the Chere couloir in Cham, a moderate ice line I have climbed about ten times.  It's always crowded, and the crux is getting there first.  I was once in the second team on route.  Another team was moving really slowly and having a huge epic at the first belay.  I came up to them, greeted them nicely, shared some friendly conversation, and asked if I could pass.  They said no.  I said, OK, well, I was only asking to be nice, but I'm going to pass anyway, because we're moving and you're not.  I passed them, we climbed the rest of the gully, and by the time we were rapping down, they were still at that same belay, and several other parties has passed them too.  I felt a little bad about passing--it's not often in life that you politely ask for permission for somehting and then, when you get no for an answer, basically say, fuck you, I'm doing what I want anyway.  When I hapened to run into them in Cham later I apologized and offered to buy them a beer (offer declined) but really, especially on an alpine climb, you have to keep moving, and you have to be realistic about your abilities.

Back to the main points: Where do ethics and cultural norms end and laws begin?  How far should we take being nice and polite vs being realistic and accomplishing goals?  Does being first always give you the right to a climb?  

Discuss..

Bruno Schullwrote:

Back to the main points: Where do ethics and cultural norms end and laws begin?  How far should we take being nice and polite vs being realistic and accomplishing goals?  Does being first always give you the right to a climb?  

Discuss.

Bruno, I am sure you’re aware there are no real answers to these questions. People just need to act like adults and let their ego take a back seat now and then for best results.

If a person needs catharsis by posting an epic on MP then I say go ahead, we could use some more juicy content on here, but really it’s just embarrassing and cringy.

Or trolling.

Godspeed.

If I’m walking down the street and have a brief and inconsequential interaction with a complete stranger that is negative for whatever reason, and I go home and write a 19 paragraph novel about how I am in fact WAY more comfortable on a 5.6 (I’m wearing approach shoes for gods sake), who looks more unhinged, me or the stranger who hasn’t thought about this once since tying in?

So basically you were the real bad ass on Solar Slab that day even though you didn't have your guide uniform on  and the commercialism of climbing sucks and you have soloed 5.6 and you ran into some grumpy tourists on possibly the most popular line in the park while in approach shoes? 

Sometimes its best to just light up a joint and pretend to not speak English.

Bruno Schullwrote:

Max -- Thanks for the story, and thanks in generall for your contributions and posts, which often illuminate the intricacies of the guiding profession.  I sympathize with the sentiments you express, although I agree with a few others that it was perhaps not the most constructive text.  I'll chalk it up to the understandable need to vent, along with a valuable plea to treat each other well.

It does raise a few interesting points.  Notably, are there any actual rules about who climbs first, gets to pass, and so on?  I don't mean shared cultural norms, good sense principles, or best safety practices...I mean actual laws?

For example, let's say the situation was as you describe, and this other climber decided to just start up the pitch with your partner half-way to the next anchor, increasing the complexity and perhaps the danger for everyone?  It wouldn't be nice, and perhaps it wouldn't be safe, but would it be illegal?

I live and climb in Europe, and this kind of thing is common.  People just climb right through, often clipping your gear.  I think it gets tricky when accidents happen.  I can't think of any examples off the top of my head, but in the snowsports world, here in Switzerland, you can be held legally accountable if you trigger an avalanche above another party.  But what if another party moves underneath you without your control?  I think it's typically applied when, for example, some skiers or riders come in from the top and do something reckless and trigger a slide, but I can see that the arguments could get complicated and one would need experienced people to determine a just outcome. 

What about climbing?  Let's say the other party climbed past you as above, and then triggered rockfall, or fell and hit you or your partner, or in some way caused you or your partner to fall or be injured in some way?  What would happen then?

I wonder if a principle could be applied to th effect of "did this party act in a way inconsistent with the shared practices of this group? or "Did this party act in a reckless way that they should have been able to predict or anticipate given their level of experience?" Could a charge of reckless endangerment be aplied?  I could also see the legal argument that anybody engaging in an activity like climbing accepts risks which includes people climbing above/around you.  I'm not sure how this would play out in court.  

The reverse situation is also interesting.  Let's say you come upon a party moving slowly or having an epic on terrain that is moderate for you, and perhaps there is a time pressure or concern about weather of some other factor.  Does the other party get to dictate whether or not you pass just because they got there first?  You can try to be friendly and accomodating and ask to pass nicely, but isf they say no do you just climb through anyway?  As above, if there is no law and if you don't put them in danger or interfere significantly with them then...?

Basically, in broad terms, in the absence of laws, are people free to do as they please, however offensive others might find their behavior?

Two examples, one anectodal and one personal. 

I read on MP about a team climbing Snake Dike in Yoemite.  Nice weather, crowds, lots of teams, as expected.  They were fast and competent.  They safely passed a couple of teams (if I remember correctly) and then came to a team with a polite yet stubborn belayer who refused to let them pass or even join at the lower anchor.  For many pitches, all the way to the top, the leader of the fast party just waited one move below the anchor for the slower team to move off and then continued.  I find that ridiculous.  I am willing to move heavan and earth, wake up at whatever hour, hike any distance, to be free from crowds on climbs, and I generally ascribe to the first come first serve principle, but sometimes it just doesn't make sense.  Being first does not or should not in my view give you the absolute right to be a stubbon jerk and fuck up other peoples days.  

I was climbing the Chere couloir in Cham, a moderate ice line I have climbed about ten times.  It's always crowded, and the crux is getting there first.  I was once in the second team on route.  Another team was moving really slowly and having a huge epic at the first belay.  I came up to them, greeted them nicely, shared some friendly conversation, and asked if I could pass.  They said no.  I said, OK, well, I was only asking to be nice, but I'm going to pass anyway, because we're moving and you're not.  I passed them, we climbed the rest of the gully, and by the time we were rapping down, they were still at that same belay, and several other parties has passed them too.  I felt a little bad about passing--it's not often in life that you politely ask for permission for somehting and then, when you get no for an answer, basically say, fuck you, I'm doing what I want anyway.  When I hapened to run into them in Cham later I apologized and offered to buy them a beer (offer declined) but really, especially on an alpine climb, you have to keep moving, and you have to be realistic about your abilities.

Back to the main points: Where do ethics and cultural norms end and laws begin?  How far should we take being nice and polite vs being realistic and accomplishing goals?  Does being first always give you the right to a climb?  

Discuss..

Good points Bruno, but I think the blanket answer is it depends. Obivisouly there are no hard and fast laws in the US, even under liability suits, which are retroactive inspection of accidents. I think it's more than okay to pass a party whether that's while soloing, simuling, or normal climbing if you're on a trade route like solar slab. If it's something more obscure and doesn't get climbed often then running the risk of having more loose rock on the route is possible but then again, if it doesn't get climbed often then it's unlikely you'll run into another party. Same goes for alpine rock routes.

I've had a super similar experience while my buddy and I were simuling he cirque traverse in the winds. Party of three had big egos, gave us some comment that if we passed them and then they passed us again, they'd stay in front for the rest of the day (said quite aggressively) . We basically finished wolf's head before they topped out on Pingora. 

My brother and I were in the Tetons and wanted to climb Irene's Arete. We are not the strongest or fastest climbers, so we got up extra early to give ourselves a time buffer.  Still, we had a bit of trouble finding the base of the route, and accidentally scrambled up past the first and second pitch. 

By the time I was halfway up the third pitch, another party had caught up to us.  I was having a pretty tough time and felt quite daunted by the rest of the route.  At the bottom of P4, I asked them if they'd like to pass.  They said it's all good and to keep going.  By the bottom of P5, another two parties had accumulated below.  

Again, I asked if the party behind us wanted to go ahead.  I even floated the idea of bailing off their anchor so that we wouldn't hold everyone up.  They said we shouldn't, that they were having a great day in the mountains, and everyone was going to get up just fine.

A pitch or two later, the two parties behind us passed on a couple adjacent variations. Another pitch or so, and we were all at the top.  Everyone got up safe and were back to the parking lot before nightfall.

It turned out to be an extremely memorable and gratifying climb, and I am so glad that the party behind us was kind and encouraged us to keep going.  I felt it was a very positive way to interact with other climbers.

Nice story Andy. There is hope for us all, yet.

Egos are just trouble. Gotta have them, but they can mess you up.

R K wrote:

Got a TL;DR version? 

The TL;DR version is:

• I’m a guide
• I can climb 5.6 in approach shoes
• Someone was annoyed I was faster than him
• I’m a guide

TL/DR: much ado about nothing. 

Wow - you guys are brutal. I don't think Max was intending to "spray" but whatever. I thought it was an interesting story.

E MuuDwrote:

Wow - you guys are brutal. I don't think Max was intending to "spray" but whatever. I thought it was an interesting story.

It’s winter and as you can see from the other thread, ice climbing is boring. Shitposting is all we have. 

Andy Eiterwrote:

My brother and I were in the Tetons and wanted to climb Irene's Arete. We are not the strongest or fastest climbers, so we got up extra early to give ourselves a time buffer.  Still, we had a bit of trouble finding the base of the route, and accidentally scrambled up past the first and second pitch. 

By the time I was halfway up the third pitch, another party had caught up to us.  I was having a pretty tough time and felt quite daunted by the rest of the route.  At the bottom of P4, I asked them if they'd like to pass.  They said it's all good and to keep going.  By the bottom of P5, another two parties had accumulated below.  

Again, I asked if the party behind us wanted to go ahead.  I even floated the idea of bailing off their anchor so that we wouldn't hold everyone up.  They said we shouldn't, that they were having a great day in the mountains, and everyone was going to get up just fine.

A pitch or two later, the two parties behind us passed on a couple adjacent variations. Another pitch or so, and we were all at the top.  Everyone got up safe and were back to the parking lot before nightfall.

It turned out to be an extremely memorable and gratifying climb, and I am so glad that the party behind us was kind and encouraged us to keep going.  I felt it was a very positive way to interact with other climbers.

This is awesome and a wonderful example of how it should go.  I think my whole point is that we should lead with being friendly and kind when climbing around each other.  It's rad that your story added supportive to the mix.  I for sure wasn't friendly and kind to Timmy in my write up, but that's not really what I was going for.  Sometimes it's fun to go over the top harmlessly making fun of someone who will never actually be publicly connected to this story as there's no way to track it back to them. (unless they choose to out themselves)

To the bigger discussion Bruno started, I think it depends on too many factors to really have any sort of concrete guidelines and it's up to the parties involved to figure it out the best way they can. (hence starting with being friendly) As he aludes to, commitment, weather forecast, length of route, remoteness, overhead hazard all inform the issue.  In terms of the legal side of things, a hiker in the Winds was tried and I think convicted of manslaughter when he inadvertently killed Pete Absolon trundling rocks from the summit of the peak he'd hiked up.  (he turned himself in out of guilt and remorse if I remember correctly)  That's a bit different though as he was willfully making an already dangerous sport more so.  I think having parties above you is an inherent risk in climbing and unless they acted really egregiously irresponsibly, I'm not sure they'd be found liable in court?  No idea though as I'm no lawyer...

Ultimately I'm with you: lead with kindness, if it doesn't really matter, don't be pushy, but if it matters for some reason, don't be afraid to assert yourself if you've given another party every opportunity to do the right thing and continue to be friendly as you work past them.

Nobody likes being passed by some goofus in approach shoes whose been on the route so many times he doesn’t even enjoy it anymore.

Go find another place to be rad.

Timmy was rightfully annoyed.

Doesn’t sound like either of you guys ruined the other’s day.

I find that some folks like to use someone else outperforming them as a club to beat themselves with. Sounds like the other leader felt bad about himself after seeing you move faster and decided to take it out on you.