Non-locker on Top belay...YGD?

I learned to top-belay using a round-stock oval (i.e. carabiner racking nuts) as the friction 'biner in guide mode. Recently another climber called me out on this as unsafe. I changed out immediately since the logic made sense (i.e. life depends on a single attachment point), but it left me wondering if I was somehow a minority. Opinions/experience? Do you have a preferred 'biner for this application? 

How are you posting this from the grave?

I wouldn’t do it personally, but seems safe enough if you are being attentive.

Been using a Metolius Element:

https://www.metoliusclimbing.com/element_belay_carabiner.html

Since I don’t want to use my round stock attache’s for belaying.

I know people who wouldn't climb with you if you do that.

Greg Millerwrote:

Been using a Metolius Element:

https://www.metoliusclimbing.com/element_belay_carabiner.html

Since I don’t want to use my round stock attache’s for belaying.

This is one of the carabiners I've been looking at. Light, small, and round (low-friction).

Gunkiemikewrote:

I know people who wouldn't climb with you if you do that.

I get it. Once it was pointed out I changed my methods, but it did cause me to wonder how many others do/have done the same.

Not ideal but perfectly bomber. The only thing lockers do is prevent unclipping. In the scenario you are using unclipping is pretty dang unlikely. 

Open gate strength doesn't even matter in the way it's loaded so even if it nose hooked open it's not any more dangerous.

That being said I usually use a locker for that. 

You could use a regular (non-locking) carabiner to hang the ATC when belaying in guide mode, and I suppose that unclipping would be "pretty dang unlikely," as the above poster wrote, for that one too.  It's not obvious to me why the OP (or anyone else) thinks it's more important that the "hanging" biner be locker than the "friction" biner.  The instructions say to use a locker for both, for what I think are somewhat obvious and intuitive reasons.  By the way, how likely do you think it is that a Grigri would somehow unclip when belaying off a harness (or anything else)?  Whatever you think the answer is, just follow the instructions and common-sense and use a locker.  More generally, if someone can't be bothered to read instructions for using climbing equipment (or I suppose just following what are regarded as standard best practices), I wonder whether climbing is really a suitable sport.  

Logic aside, I would be spooked if I came up and saw this set up. Honestly not sure if I would continue that belaytionship. But admittedly, I have always been a rule nerd and get spooked easily. 

agree with everyone. probably fine but why risk? my opinion is that this scenario makes it more likely to unclip than many other important situations because to belay from the top requires both hands and really working the rope through it, so it gets yanked around and the biner could easily flip around. i think it's a wise decision to switch to a locker. if i found this at a belay, i'd ask my parter to use a locker.

as far as would i climb with a person again if i saw this at the belay? depends, if they doubled down on something like this, something that doesn't require a retraining or changing a whole system, then id probably give them up. if they just said oh yeah okay, then no problem. id always be keeping an eye out for what my partners are doing anyway.

Branon Rochellewrote:

I learned to top-belay using a round-stock oval (i.e. carabiner racking nuts) as the friction 'biner in guide mode. Recently another climber called me out on this as unsafe. I changed out immediately since the logic made sense (i.e. life depends on a single attachment point), but it left me wondering if I was somehow a minority. Opinions/experience? Do you have a preferred 'biner for this application? 

Could rotate and unclip, just use a locker next time.

Not a big deal to me but I’d probably ask them to use a locker next time for my peace of mind. No reason not to. To OP, I’ve only ever seen setups with lockers. 

abandon moderation:

But 99% of the time, I get to a belay with 3 locking Petzl Attache biners.

If those are three round stock attaches you're crazy for using them- sell them and retire! 

FWIW, I always use two lockers for atc belaying. The one through the ropes I use something like a eldie bulletproof (so im not constantly sawing carabiners in half.) The one through the guide mode eye I use a triple action steel metolious carabiner, because if I have to transition to a counter balance rappel to pick off an injured follower I don't want any questions about that piece of gear we would both be hanging off of.

Kyle Millswrote:

If those are three round stock attaches you're crazy for using them- sell them and retire! 

FWIW, I always use two lockers for atc belaying. The one through the ropes I use something like a eldie bulletproof (so im not constantly sawing carabiners in half.) The one through the guide mode eye I use a triple action steel metolious carabiner, because if I have to transition to a counter balance rappel to pick off an injured follower I don't want any questions about that piece of gear we would both be hanging off of.

It's a carabiner dude, how much do you think you weight lol. Do you also use steel carabiners when belaying? 

abandon moderation wrote:

I think it was a reference to the old Attache being worth it's weight in gold.

Alas, my Attaches are the new style. They're still my favorite locker and I'm happy they're only 56g, but they wear out pretty fast from rappelling.

I was referring to using a steel carabiner to clip an ATC through the eye.

Connor Dobsonwrote:

I was referring to using a steel carabiner to clip an ATC through the eye.

Yeah I use the steel one for the triple action assurance (not that regular lockers aren't perfectly good enough—I'm just overly paranoid), and also for rappelling. I guide at Seneca, so I never know when a trad climbing day will turn into a top rope day, so I carry two of the big steel ones all the time for TR anchors and save my more expensive/ less durable ones for other uses. I also like having the big, beefy  (and cheap—$15 retail) triple lockers on me if a rescue happens while I'm on the rocks. My pack and gear is so way over the imaginary line of "lightweight" that I don't care that the steel carabiners are heavy. The weight is good training for caving lol. 

It seems unlikely that it would unclip... but catastrophic if it did. Just use a locker.

You should use a locker.  If I followed up and saw this, I would be more likely to continue climbing with you, because you have a more realistic risk assessment than a lot of folks who just try to follow the rules by rote.

Despite the fact that it seems kind of unlikely that a non-locker would fall off when belaying off the anchor, it is incredibly shitty form not to use a locker. 

Also consider that some techniques (e.g. LSD) can cause things to shift around quite a bit and get pinched together in hard to predict/control ways.

(For this reason, I feel sketchy using even a slider-lock to attach the device to the anchor)

Seems that a lightweight locking carabiner is the better choice but if for some reason you didn't have one, using two non-lockers with opposed gates facing away from the device should be GTG?