New Alpinism

Thanks for the heads up on that.  Will be super helpful.  Some of the stuff goes so deep it goes over my head.  Being able to ask on zoom will be great!

Gunks Jesse wrote:

I’ve been using the basic principles of heart rate zones from the new alpinism for several years.  Keeping below my AeT allows me to run distance for the first time in my life!  This year I finally got the log book and have built a plan to get into way better shape.  I started a few weeks ago, but I was using the uphill athlete heart rate zones with the new alpinism training log.  I switched to all new alpinism and set the uphill athlete book aside for now.

has anyone else noticed the difference in the heart rate zones?  Am I seeing it right: new alpinism zone 1 is wide open, from just barely working out (110 bpm for me) all the way up to the AeT (150 for me)?  Then the rest of the zones are fairly tight through max.  Maybe 10 to 15 bpm range.

Whereas uphill athlete uses a more standard zone definitions.  Any advantages to using uphill athlete besides being able to talk to your friends who don’t use new alpinism?

Hey Jesse -- Yeah, I know what you mean about the discrepancy in zones, and it confused me as well. Basically I think TNFA made a mistake in which zones they identified as being delineated by AeT, or maybe they mixed up the terms in some spots. Been a while and I don't have it in front of me, but I even remember chatting briefly with them about it years ago (as someone else noted, Steve and Scott are now running separate companies: Uphill Athlete and Evoke Endurance, respectively). They have it corrected/more conventional in Uphill Athlete, including the website, which is that the top of Zone 2 = AeT, and Zone 3 (not 2) is the so-called "No Man's Land" between AeT and AT. 

Despite the confusion, the key point is the same: Build a huge aerobic base by doing the massive majority of your endurance training at or below AeT, which most sources identify as the top/end of Zone 2. Sounds like you're on it, super cool about your building some distance!

Hi Kelly--thanks for chiming in.

What tips do you have for keeping pace at or below AeT, with no heart rate monitor.  Comfortable nose breathing?  Ability to speak in full and relaxed sentences?  For personal reasons, I can not use a heart rate monitor (happy to elaborate, but it's just unrelated stuff).  Any help appreciated!  

Bruno Schull wrote:

What tips do you have for keeping pace at or below AeT, with no heart rate monitor.  Comfortable nose breathing?  Ability to speak in full and relaxed sentences?

Those will both work, but are likely on the more conservative side.

Point of reference: a marathon is completed around AeT, but most marathon runners aren't running with their mouth closed and chatting the whole race.

AeT is the effort level you can sustain for multiple hours, so if you do a 2 hour trail run at a constant effort without being totally destroyed, it's below AeT.  Just make sure to keep your shorter runs at the same effort/pace as those longer runs, don't crank the pace up because it's only 30 minutes or whatever.

Ok, so I’m prioritizing aerobic signals over cardio signals.  I’ve a pretty decent feel for AeT and have confirmed it by wearing my heart rate monitor for every run in recent months.

the training log book lays out weeks 1-3 as requiring 10% of total volume in zone 2, the rest of volume in zone 1.  I’ve been able to reconcile the chart in the heart rate zone discussion with the description in the transition plan with what they are going for.  Kelly is right: they messed up the percentages in the chart because the written description says Zone 2 should be at the top of conversational pace, which is at your AeT.  This aligns with the standard avoid zone 3 rule, and it makes sense then why they would say to workout in zone 2 after saying earlier to avoid zone 2.  Just a poorly laid out definition in one paragraph and chart.

Bruno Schull wrote:

What tips do you have for keeping pace at or below AeT, with no heart rate monitor.  Comfortable nose breathing?  Ability to speak in full and relaxed sentences?  

Hey Bruno, yeah, those are ones that I go by, along with feel, after lots of comparisons with my HR monitor and various forms of testing (all of which used HR, which then I'd correlate to more subjective observations like feel, breathing and speaking, so that I didn't have to mess with the HRM). As Kyle alluded to, though, they can be off in either direction. For example, for a while I went the opposite of his mention and forced myself into nose breathing so hard that, looking back, it was comical and greatly overestimated my AeT. Snot flying everywhere, I felt like a real champ for a second until realizing that that I was lying to myself, ha. Where I've settled-in is the higher-end of reasonable nose-breathing, i.e. don't get competitive with myself. I can churn out sentences between labored breathing, so that one is less reliable for me. I suppose there's some art alongside the science in finding those zones. If you have a background in high-intensity exercise, then Z2 will feel really easy, maybe too easy. I remember talking with Steve and Scott about this, as initially with Z2 I very much felt like I wasn't doing anything. If you're used to going hard all the time, or have a competitive sports background, it's psychologically challenging to dial it back. It's soooo easy to drift up into Z3, more of the standard exercise-feeling-good-I'm-doing-something! pace. For me and others, I've gathered, putting in lots of hours at/below AeT (i.e. Z1 & 2) requires a mental shift of sorts. Now I greatly enjoy it, it's this huge base-building, big-engine pace.

I'll occasionally take a quick 10 or 15 second manual/palpation HR when I'm out, too, since I don't often wear a monitor either. Can help steer the overall picture for me.

Kyle makes a good point about multi-hour pace. I think of AeT as my low-gear, keep-going, all-day pace.

Marathon pace could be one way, but that will also depend quite a bit. Another lifetime ago, while doing my master's in exercise physiology, we were always testing ourselves in the lab, including max VO2 and Lactate Threshold (i.e. Anaerobic Threshold), and one year I ran the Seattle marathon quite close to my AT/LT. No way I could have sustained it any longer. In fact, it was enough to make me "the first woman finisher!" as the announcer blasted over the speaker. Obviously this was before chip readers, so they must have glanced at their printout and saw my girl's name and, at the time, my long hair. As the applause settled down, I'm pretty sure I overheard someone in the audience mutter, "that's one ugly chick." Ha. They soon caught their mistake, so no trophy for me. Anyway, a brisk all-day pace is one way I've thought about AeT, and so thus a good pace for the lion's share of my endurance training :).

Kelly Cordes wrote:

Marathon pace could be one way, but that will also depend quite a bit. Another lifetime ago, while doing my master's in exercise physiology, we were always testing ourselves in the lab, including max VO2 and Lactate Threshold (i.e. Anaerobic Threshold), and one year I ran the Seattle marathon quite close to my AT/LT.

Thanks for chiming in Kelly.  Can you comment in more detail about the bit quoted above?  My layman's understanding was that AT/LT was approximately 60 min race pace, which is faster than half marathon pace for us mortals, and therefore quite a bit faster than marathon pace.  Where have I gone awry in that understanding?

(For reference, I'm thinking of coaching materials like the Daniel's vdot system https://www.rundna.com/post/vdot-training-tables, https://vdoto2.com/calculator/, Mcmillan https://www.mcmillanrunning.com/half-marathon-pace/, etc.)

Thanks for all the info!

Hey Kyle, appreciate your note -- made me think a bit deeper, and realize that I was wrong, at least in how I used my marathon example. It's been a while since I thought about running splits! I have a bunch of fused body parts nowadays and no longer run, too much impact for me, but train with cycling, steep hiking, ski touring, etc. Anyhow, you're right, about an hour at highest sustainable pace (race pace, if that's still the term) is closer to AT/LT. In my personal example, now that I reconsider it, my first half split was way too fast (closer to my LT at the time, foolishly). I slowed a lot in the second half, but my average pace was still way faster than what I suspect my AeT was. So my total time was a poor example, as it wasn't consistent/steady, thus not representative of anything beyond my terrible pacing. Your links had good info, helped refresh my memory -- I don't work in that field anymore, just maintain a personal interest in training. Thanks for making me think!

Kelly Cordes wrote:

I'm pretty sure I overheard someone in the audience mutter, "that's one ugly chick." 

I lol'd.

Wow, respect for an OG to come in and bump this thread with some wisdom.

Kelly when I was first getting into climbing, I was really inspired by your “Something About Nothing” video.  

Kelly Cordes wrote:

Hey Bruno, yeah, those are ones that I go by, along with feel, after lots of comparisons with my HR monitor and various forms of testing (all of which used HR, which then I'd correlate to more subjective observations like feel, breathing and speaking, so that I didn't have to mess with the HRM). As Kyle alluded to, though, they can be off in either direction. For example, for a while I went the opposite of his mention and forced myself into nose breathing so hard that, looking back, it was comical and greatly overestimated my AeT. Snot flying everywhere, I felt like a real champ for a second until realizing that that I was lying to myself, ha. Where I've settled-in is the higher-end of reasonable nose-breathing, i.e. don't get competitive with myself. I can churn out sentences between labored breathing, so that one is less reliable for me. I suppose there's some art alongside the science in finding those zones......

Kelly, when you mention nose breathing I'm wondering if you have focused on this much (versus mouth breathing)? Are you mouth taping at night, doing CO2 tolerance training, Buteyko breathwork, anything like that?

If anyone feels like they understand ME very well...

I've been doing ME type of work with good results long before the book. It just made sense to me that if I load my pack with about 50 lbs of crap and go up and down a steep city block in SF, I would be getting sport specific adaptations useful for general mountaineering. I then moved away from it and in the last year or two am coming back to incorporating cycles of ME into my 'off season' conditioning. Trying to figure out what is the most optimal way to train and why...

What I've been doing now is hiking up a very steep trail with about 3,300ft of gain in about 2.25 miles (up west side of Grandeur Peak in Salt Lake City). I load my pack with 6-7 gallons. I dump the weight on top. On the way up my intensity is decent and unless the trail is snow blasted I get to the top in about 1hr 12-15mins. It feels like a consistently hard effort with my HR rising to mid to high 160s and if I am really sending it low 170s. During my efforts it feels like technically I could increase my pace but my HR would go up to high 170s and it would feel like an uphill round during a race effort. On bad weather days, I do stairmaster with 50-60 lbs. During last workout I did 60 lbs warming up with level 8 for 10 mins, then 40 mins of 9 and last 10 mins at 8 since my HR was at about 180 and I felt my effort was very hard. 

In Scott Johnston's YouTube video about ME he states that HR/cardio shouldn't be what limits the effort, but the weight of the pack must be the limiter. If I am understanding correctly. In my training I feel like I could carry more weight if I slow down my pace. Should I try to carry more weight in that case, or sort of continue with progression in a similar fashion to what I've been doing. 

SirToby - unless you’re going sport specific for a pack race, I have to wonder if those calories aren’t better burned with olympic lifts and core in the gym and a trail run up that peak the following day - ie focus on strength, then focus on cardio - not both at the same time.  Seems to me the typical active alpine climber gets plenty of mileage with a pack and too much would create odd muscle imbalances.  Carrying a pack up stairs seems like something a midwesterner would do, lacking wknds in real mountains. 

Scott talks about the ME training a lot in this podcast: https://uphillathlete.com/podcast/muscular-endurance-for-mountain-athletes-with-coach-scott-johnston/

It sounds like your aerobic effort level during these sessions may be higher than they recommend, but it's hard to know without knowing your AeT, AnT, etc.  I think you're likely fitter than the average poster on here too, so that may complicate things...

Your pack weights are pretty high, check out the TFTNA book where they show an example of a routine Steve House used before an expedition, his weights were lower.

(It seems highly improbable that olympic lifting is going to be more beneficial for an alpinist than carrying a weighted pack.  UA has talked about this extensively, and they use this type of training for high level alpinists who have regular access to mountains, not just "midwesterners.")

https://uphillathlete.com/aerobic-training/vertical-beast-mode-what-is-muscular-endurance-why-it-is-important-for-any-alpinist-or-mountaineer-and-how-do-you-train-it/

Vitaliy,

to my understanding, the ME work related to weighted step-ups or water carries should never be felt in the lungs. If the lungs are burning, (per Scott in TFTNA) you should either shorten the step (height/length of stride) or increase the pack weight. This should force you to slow down. 'Feeling it' in the lungs can actually work against your past gains if done at this high intensity too often. You want the effort to be felt in the muscles. Specifically the legs, hips, glutes, etc. You should be able to hold a conversation while doing this type of ME.

jcs

edited for clarity

SirTobyThe3rd M wrote:

If anyone feels like they understand ME very well...

I've been doing ME type of work with good results long before the book. It just made sense to me that if I load my pack with about 50 lbs of crap and go up and down a steep city block in SF, I would be getting sport specific adaptations useful for general mountaineering. I then moved away from it and in the last year or two am coming back to incorporating cycles of ME into my 'off season' conditioning. Trying to figure out what is the most optimal way to train and why...

What I've been doing now is hiking up a very steep trail with about 3,300ft of gain in about 2.25 miles (up west side of Grandeur Peak in Salt Lake City). I load my pack with 6-7 gallons. I dump the weight on top. On the way up my intensity is decent and unless the trail is snow blasted I get to the top in about 1hr 12-15mins. It feels like a consistently hard effort with my HR rising to mid to high 160s and if I am really sending it low 170s. During my efforts it feels like technically I could increase my pace but my HR would go up to high 170s and it would feel like an uphill round during a race effort. On bad weather days, I do stairmaster with 50-60 lbs. During last workout I did 60 lbs warming up with level 8 for 10 mins, then 40 mins of 9 and last 10 mins at 8 since my HR was at about 180 and I felt my effort was very hard. 

In Scott Johnston's YouTube video about ME he states that HR/cardio shouldn't be what limits the effort, but the weight of the pack must be the limiter. If I am understanding correctly. In my training I feel like I could carry more weight if I slow down my pace. Should I try to carry more weight in that case, or sort of continue with progression in a similar fashion to what I've been doing. 

Sounds like your ME workouts are actually more like threshold workouts. The high heart rate makes it really difficult for the gains to transfer to high altitude, as you can only work at a much lower % of max with lower O2 pressure. 

When I do ME workouts with the traditional hill setting I will do a much steeper rate of climb, at least as steep as stairs. I use an old logging track in FS that goes straight up the hill, no flats and no switchbacks. I will do MS and get my step-ups over 100lbs during a 6-8 week block before I do ME.  Then my pack weight typically starts at 65lbs for the ME session. One season I got my MS step-ups up to 135lbs and then did 80lbs for my uphill carry. At this point my pain tolerance for shoulders was the limiter and so once I reached this level then I progressed my speed instead of adding more weight, but this was only at the end of a long base training cycle. 

Another alternative that UA has used is to do interval style ME using a 60 sec on/30 sec off structure... see their ice beast workout which is published for free on their website for an ice specific version. I created my own for times of year where daylight/work/weather/snow makes it more difficult: 3 min step-ups, 1 min rest, 90 sec latteral ski jump plyos, 30 sec rest, 60 sec forward/backward ski jump plyos, 30 sec rest, calf raises for 30sec each side, 2 min rest, repeat (two sets first couple weeks and working up to 4 or more sets over 8 weeks). Since the step-ups are on a shorter interval I have gotten up to 95lbs bar and 60 step-ups in the 3 min. This weight keeps the limiting factor on the muscles, making it more ME and less of a cardiovascular interval stress.

Here’s another good alternative ME workout that can be done at home without a pack: https://uphillathlete.com/strength-training/at-home-muscular-endurance-workout-with-progression/

jackscoldsweat wrote:

Vitaliy,

to my understanding, the ME work related to weighted step-ups or water carries should never be felt in the lungs. If the lungs are burning, (per Scott in TFTNA) you should either shorten the step (height/length of stride) or increase the pack weight. This should force you to slow down. 'Feeling it' in the lungs can actually work against your past gains if done at this high intensity too often. You want the effort to be felt in the muscles. Specifically the legs, hips, glutes, etc. You should be able to hold a conversation while doing this type of ME.

jcs

edited for clarity

Yeah, this is what I was getting at. In his videos and podcast on ME Scott says that lungs shouldn't be the limiter. I probably need to update my pack to carry more than 7 gallons, to avoid killing my shoulders and torso. During my next cycle, I will try to load myself till the limiter is the actual weight in the pack. 

One of my buddies is a top-notch athlete/coach for Uphill Athlete who does similar ME workouts on stairmaster to what I do on stairmaster, and he was able to achieve some incredible feats when it comes to mountain running. I expect consistency and a well-executed 'off season' training cycle is more important than nuance in the exact performance of the exercise. Especially when the goals are to improve at both alpinism and mountain running. Pretty happy with my off season thus far and excited to experiment in the future.

The home/gym based ME workout is pretty damn good too, however if you do it as prescribed and are trying to run 70-90 miles a week, it certainly will give you the DOMS if you are not used to it. Also, personally don't know if it is as effective as a combination of plyometrics, eccentric strength load and exercises that are more strength oriented with more rest/more load and less lactic acid build up involved. I suspect, any of this shit is helpful and that you don't need to be an Olympic level athlete to climb the Cassin in a reasonable day. 

SirTobyThe3rd M wrote:

Yeah, this is what I was getting at. In his videos and podcast on ME Scott says that lungs shouldn't be the limiter. I probably need to update my pack to carry more than 7 gallons, to avoid killing my shoulders and torso. During my next cycle, I will try to load myself till the limiter is the actual weight in the pack. 

One of my buddies is a top-notch athlete/coach for Uphill Athlete who does similar ME workouts on stairmaster to what I do on stairmaster, and he was able to achieve some incredible feats when it comes to mountain running. I expect consistency and a well-executed 'off season' training cycle is more important than nuance in the exact performance of the exercise. Especially when the goals are to improve at both alpinism and mountain running. Pretty happy with my off season thus far and excited to experiment in the future.

The home/gym based ME workout is pretty damn good too, however if you do it as prescribed and are trying to run 70-90 miles a week, it certainly will give you the DOMS if you are not used to it. Also, personally don't know if it is as effective as a combination of plyometrics, eccentric strength load and exercises that are more strength oriented with more rest/more load and less lactic acid build up involved. I suspect, any of this shit is helpful and that you don't need to be an Olympic level athlete to climb the Cassin in a reasonable day. 

Vitaliy,

Out of curiosity and in an attempt gauge my own personal results....
How often are you performing the ME type workouts within a weeks time? How many weeks into a program or prior to launch are you injecting these types of workouts?
Any chance I could talk you into updating your blog with this info? Its all in the details.

jcs

Just so everyone is on the same page, Sir Toby established solo the biggest route/traverse in the western hemisphere and maybe the world