Will my nuts pop if i fall?

I try to place nuts in good constrictions or thread them when possible but often place nuts anticipating a downward and only slightly outward pull.

My second come up to a piece today and was able to pull my stopper out with a totally perpendicular yank.

In a fall directly above this piece on a vertical wall, with only a quick draw for extension, will the fall generate perpendicular outward pull in most cases?

It also depends on the placement below the nut and the belayer's position. Look up "zippering."

Hard to tell if the nut would have held a fall based on "my follower pulled it out perpendicularly." Not enough info.

FrankPS makes a good point. The protection below matters even though they wall was vertical. You are going to have to give a three dimensional description illustrating whether the piece below and its’ sling might have contributed to outward pull.

Personally, I think you should work this out with your partner rather than here.

Perpendicular?  No. But, as you seem to appreciate, there is often SOME horizontal component to the force.

Side comment - BD and WC nuts seem to come out "perpendicularly" more easily than nuts with a longitudinal scoop e.g. Metolius and DMM. I think that's a significant advantage to the latter, but you want to make sure your second knows what they are doing as the too-typical newbie upwards yank can rotate them and get them stuck.  My $0.02.

The nut in question was above 3 bolts. Zippering was less of a concern.

Nut was slotted in a vertical crack in a V with good contact on both sides of the nut with little outward constriction.

It was a #6 steel nut with a taper. 

This was on vertical terrain and a fall would have produced some left to right swing.

I could pop the nut if i pulled directly perpendicular but not in any downward angle.

The questions I am trying to answer are:

When during a fall above protection is outward force generated?

Relative to the pro, is significant outward force generated above, perpendicular, below?

And as a side note to Bill, if this was a matter of opinion Id work this out with my partner, since this seems to have an objective physics based answer that might add to everyones understanding of safe nut placement (noobie and veteran alike), i decided to ask the experts ;)

Just make sure your harness fits properly 

There is a really good YouTube video my friend shared on another thread that may be helpful:

https://youtube.com/shorts/_v4gFshgwmQ?feature=share

Jimmy Brickerwrote:

And as a side note to Bill, if this was a matter of opinion Id work this out with my partner, since this seems to have an objective physics based answer that might add to everyones understanding of safe nut placement (noobie and veteran alike), i decided to ask the experts ;)

Ha ha. Mostly, the way you describe your rigging and the climb, it sounds about how I would / do lead.  I often place nuts that I do not trust to withstand a strong perpendicular outward pull - providing the 3D circumstances allow it.

So, fully putting myself in your shoes so to speak - which is always risky, I’d just talk more about it with my partner, as appropriate occasions arise, until it seemed there was a no more to talk about. You and your partner have the best understanding of the circumstances.

I’ll just edit to add: Book learning is great. Learning on the internet is ok - I have relied on that a lot. But of course there is nothing like being there with someone knowledgeable and / or with your partner.

Anyway, lots of good posts being made here.   Carry on.

The outward force depends on a bunch of factors that vary from situation to situation. You could mitigate this risk a little by using a longer extension (shoulder-length sling). 

As a top piece, it can see significant outward pull on short falls. Calculate the vector of how far you're away from the wall and how far below when the initial tug of rope happens. The farther below the more vertical the vector. Putting a long sling helps to increase the distance to fall.

Once the stopper is not the top piece a long sling helps it not get yanked by the tensioned rope. Depending on how much the route wanders.

If it's dubious extend it.

Do people have many/any real-world examples of a TOP piece failing through zippering? In a fall, the rope doesn't get weighted until the leader is below the top piece, and that piece will already have a significant downward force holding it in place by the time anything beneath it can pop. I'm not saying I would love the feeling of watching all my pieces zipper while hanging on a single nut, but at that point the nut has proven its reliability soooo... 

Jimmy Brickerwrote:

The nut in question was above 3 bolts. Zippering was less of a concern.

Zippering is always a concern. You need to look at the placements ABOVE and below the piece. Any 2 points that are out of line are going to cause a radial load when the rope is tensioned. This is a really common mistake i see a lot of new climbers making.

Is it possible to go too far in securing a nut placement? What are examples or signs of going too far with it?

(Maybe belongs in its’ own thread.)

Honestly, does everyone make sure every nut placement won’t zipper? I sure don’t. Unless it’s the first piece, then I might use opposing nuts. Otherwise I figure it’ll do it’s job until the next placement. You take what the rock can give you.

i think you really need to monitor it as you go along.  sure, sometimes you just a need an ~ok piece to get you up to that next obvious good piece.  but if you aren't consistently keeping the entire system in mind, you could be in for a rude awakening.  i have seen gear pull many, many times and the great majority of those times it has been multiple pieces.

Only one way to know: Take the whip!

Colonel Mustardwrote:

Only one way to know: Take the whip!

I was going to say the same thing -- go back, reproduce the placement, and jump off.

David Gibbswrote:

I was going to say the same thing -- go back, reproduce the placement, and jump off.

I’d contribute gas money - as long as it’s just for good clean fun.

Ill take you up on that Bill.  

2,358 miles back to Oak Flats, 3 hour hike to the totem pole.  

Definitely worth it ;)

But yeah, it is a good idea, taking a couple TR protected falls on various dubious nuts is probably good way to suss this out.

And as a tangent:

Oak Flats is still under attack. US gov still taking away Native lands for profit and greed. You’d think 200 years of oppression would be enough. Find out more:

http://apache-stronghold.com/take-action.html

Fair enough, Jimmy. Man that’s a distance!