What is your climbing conspiracy theory?

Andy Liu intentionally records himself doing hard beta on moderate routes to trick weaker climbers

There's no move harder than V9. Everything rated harder is just stringing together lower percentage V9 moves.

To take it a step further, everything above V12 is the same. It's like sumo wrestling where everyone is just apart of some in-crowd that gets together to agree on random grades to push some towards fame/success and then have their turn in the spotlight. I'm sure some of the "V16" problems are actually just like V7. 

Burden of Dreams is probably the one exception and probably has real V10 moves which is why nobody can seem to repeat it - because Nalle broke the truce of making up grades and that's why nobody has heard from him in like 4 years - he's been excommunicated by the in-crowd.

Andrew Child wrote:

Andy Liu intentionally records himself doing hard beta on moderate routes to trick weaker climbers

The ole' Andy Liu switcheroo

Route manufacturing is a non issue. People do not actually care about climbing ethics. Most people will pull on drilled pockets, glued holds, and bolted cracks. They are just concerned about being perceived as a 'real' climber.

There are not many drilled holds not because of ethics but because of logistics. A single drill battery can't even make a 5.10 jug. In order to drill a jug ladder you need to splice a battery into your drill. Given that less than 1% of climbers bolt, of this 1% maybe 1% would spend the time to do this, drilled pockets are just not actually a concern. 

The larger concern would be people just gluing holds on from the ground, but the time to find a hold good enough and the cost of glue ($27 right now in Seattle) people also won't do this. 

Route manufacturing has poor opportunity cost, that is why it is unpopular nothing to do with ethics. 

Route manufacturing will become abundant once the opportunity cost to chip is lower than the cost to find a new cliff. 

Will C wrote:

At least he didn't start another thread based on a shower thought that he slowly drifts the conversation to glue and "real climbers". 

Some bouldering conspiracy theories:

1. Brushing off chalk does more to polish to the rock than just leaving it on would. If you let chalk accumulate for 5 years and then etched it off with a vinegar solution the rock would be in better condition than if every person brushed their chalk off after climbing. The abrasion from the brush and your hands directly on the rock surface do more to weather the rock vs if you were always climbing on a veneer of chalk. Brushing makes the route temporarily easier by improving the friction vs climbing on a chalk veneer but is not doing anything for conservation aside from reducing the eyesore of chalk.

2. People claim boar's hair climbing brushes do less damage to the rock because they're softer, but because they're softer they need more scrubbing (more brush strokes, harder application) to net the same amount of chalk removal, negating any such conservation effect.

My conspiracy theory is that the first pitch of Serenity Crack has always had the flared pods, and isn't that way because of nailing.

I was in the SEKI back country, far from the evil reaches of aid climbers, where I found a crack with suspiciously similar pod features...

Does anyone have an image of P1 of Serenity Crack prior to being supposedly "nailed out"?

Princess Puppy Lovr wrote:

Calm down amigo. We are all entitled to bad takes, but you seem much much more focused on me than my take which keeps the thread derailed, so either articulate a counter arguement or move on! Maybe call the access fund to stop this salt mine that seems to be open.

That was a pretty good line, kudos   

MattHwrote:

Some bouldering conspiracy theories:

1. Brushing off chalk does more to polish to the rock than just leaving it on would. If you let chalk accumulate for 5 years and then etched it off with a vinegar solution the rock would be in better condition than if every person brushed their chalk off after climbing. The abrasion from the brush and your hands directly on the rock surface do more to weather the rock vs if you were always climbing on a veneer of chalk. Brushing makes the route temporarily easier by improving the friction vs climbing on a chalk veneer but is not doing anything for conservation aside from reducing the eyesore of chalk.

2. People claim boar's hair climbing brushes do less damage to the rock because they're softer, but because they're softer they need more scrubbing (more brush strokes, harder application) to net the same amount of chalk removal, negating any such conservation effect.

brushing chalk is just like brushing teeth, if you brush as hard as you can you're going to do some damage. If you go slow and gentle you get the same result with minimal long term consequences.

Will C wrote:

Then argue it super topo or post your own conspiracy! Aren't the best conspiracies somewhat believable! I don't see why you guys are focused on me! Focus on the conspiracies! 

I have never claimed to be a real climber! I am definitely a punter!

Conspiracy that Will, JT, Kevin and Chad are the same person! Other conspiracy is that people are actually trolling themselves most the time!

Follow me on insta, I was just in red rocks, that place is a absolute pile of mud! There is no such thing as a respectable rope grade, especially to the mp community. If you watch me moonboard you will definitely think WTF is wrong with this guy. People were saying 14a isnt even that impressive in the 8a thread.

Did I? I think I was just in Canada or wild iris or not near the internet and I forgot about it. I think I am pretty good at responding to people.

Normally I’d believe you, but this was a year or two ago and you literally announced you were rage quitting when everyone ganged up on you and hurt your feeling lol 

To be clear, I don't think there is such a thing as a real climber. I don't really want people to think of me as a real climber. I for one don't want anyone to ever have expectations of my climbing ability. I think people think I am advocating for a certain point when most the time I am advocating for anarchy.

Is that a type of ice cream I‘m unfamiliar with?

I think I am consistent.

You honestly think that your posts are consistent and that they are all of the same level of sincerity? Like you really think the level of seriousness between your pants-over-harness and your training forum or PNW forum posts are the same? If this is the case, then I was all wrong about you and you really are just another annoying fake dude on the internet 

 I don't lead anyone astray except those that wanna follow me into the craziness. 

I would agree, however you seem to embrace those of us who follow you into the crazy and that, in turn, produces crazy posts which offset every 10 level headed, reasonable posts you create.

Follow me on insta, I was just in red rocks, that place is a absolute pile of mud! There is no such thing as a respectable rope grade, especially to the mp community.

Take a fucking (backhanded) compliment when it’s given. This is why people on here can’t stand you bro. That’s also not true, regarding RR being a pile of mud. It’s (unfortunately) some if the best sandstone west of the Rockies. Quit doing the whole woe-is-me bullshit and climb the good stuff when you go to places like RR or Smith or Index. Nobody feels bad for you and you look like an idiot when you call these kinds of places choss.…well, except Smith….Smith is choss 

 If you watch me moonboard you will definitely think WTF is wrong with this guy.

Jokes on you, I feel that way about everyone on a moonboard…even the strong climbers 

People were saying 14a isnt even that impressive in the 8a thread.

I never said you’re climbing was impressive….I said “respectable (due to your height)”

My Rover sends me these same kinds of photos all the time….but with actual dogs that aren’t tiny mutants. This is not sufficient proof. 

I think we gotta more drama than my marriage!

Not Not MP Adminwrote:

Normally I’d believe you, but this was a year or two ago and you literally announced you were rage quitting when everyone ganged up on you and hurt your feeling lol 

Haha I am sure that was the case then!

You honestly think that your posts are consistent and that they are all of the same level of sincerity? 

I didn't think sincerity was what you meant. Pants over the harness is not an insane idea, it just seemed insane because I worded it that way. Yes the sincerity in the way I write varies drastically, but I also believe what I write, so in a sense it is sincere. Choss can be classic, you could just aid climb with a tall ladder, how to have a training intervention, and inexperience is not an argument are all valid thread concepts. You just have to dress them up to be dumb, because people want to be reactionary. 

Take a fucking (backhanded) compliment when it’s given.

Well thank you? I thought I was gonna have the ego thing turned back around on me, had to deflect!

 This is why people on here can’t stand you bro. That’s also not true, regarding RR being a pile of mud. It’s (unfortunately) some if the best sandstone west of the Rockies. 

Red rock is a pile of mud, you can't climb there when its wet. It absolutely is a fun place to climb but people are not climbing there because the rock is bomber. 

Quit doing the whole woe-is-me bullshit and climb the good stuff when you go to places like RR or Smith or Index. Nobody feels bad for you and you look like an idiot when you call these kinds of places choss.…well, except Smith….Smith is choss 

Choss exists on a spectrum. General discourse on mountain project however seems to not even acknowledge that there is a spectrum. The entire concept of choss is not even agreed upon. Take index for example, I love Index but to say it is the best rock quality in Washington isn't true. By most metrics Darrington has far superior rock (significant less rock fall events, talus, geologic age). The consensus among washington climbers is that Index is a way way way more fun place to climb than Darrington.  People conflate rock quality with climbing quality. 

I would choose red rocks over many many crags, but hearing the FA account of ephinerene doesn't really sell the rock quality. Also, I would say the best of the best rock you could hit with a hammer and tell no difference. I don't think any locals would be psyched about me taking a hammer to the rock in red rocks, but people probably wouldn't even care in index. 

Finally lets talk about hard limestone, both Joe Kinder and Darek Kroll talk about how rifle is held together mostly with glue. Does that make the climbing bad? IDK, I personally just don't want holds to rip off. If the cliff starts out as pure choss but everything is glued or drilled then I don't really care about how good the rock was originally,  if its classic I will climb it.

When I was in red rock I climbed Yakk Crack and Fear/Loathing both considered classic, I just wouldn't consider them classic because the rock is bomber. Last year when I climbed in the black corridor I climbed a route that has like 100 ticks, an important hold broke off after all these subsequent attempts and now the route is on pace to be my hardest onsight. 

My Rover sends me these same kinds of photos all the time….but with actual dogs that aren’t tiny mutants. This is not sufficient proof. 

What proof do you want?

I'm just pleased that this thread remained lighthearted and fun for six and a half pages before the Puppy Lovr haters piled on. Y'all need to get a life.

Rock climbing is a form of population control for the dumb downed masses. Grown men have traded in the prospect to get married, have a family, own a home,and/or advance their career as they are now content living the better half of their life in a van as they seek to satiate this unquenchable desire to grab as many rocks as possible. Due to the small size of their living quarters, lack of income, and going weeks without showering, they are unable to find a mate and have thus eliminated themselves from the gene pool. 

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

I think we gotta more drama than my marriage!

Love is a strange thing

Haha I am sure that was the case then!

Idr what point I was making but feel some sort of moral victory 

I didn't think sincerity was what you meant. Pants over the harness is not an insane idea, it just seemed insane because I worded it that way. Yes the sincerity in the way I write varies drastically, but I also believe what I write, so in a sense it is sincere.

So was sincerity the right word or not? 

Choss can be classic, you could just aid climb with a tall ladder, how to have a training intervention, and inexperience is not an argument are all valid thread concepts.

My point is that you when you are trying to be helpful in training forums or local threads it comes off and nsincere due to posts like this, pants over harnesses, ethics aren’t real, etc  

 You just have to dress them up to be dumb, because people want to be reactionary. 

Wasn’t there a wise dude who said don’t argue with stupid cause they’ll bring you down to their level and they’ve got more experience there?

Well thank you? I thought I was gonna have the ego thing turned back around on me, had to deflect!

Tricked ya! You egomaniac, you

Red rock is a pile of mud, you can't climb there when its wet.

 That’s any super absorbent rock like sandstone ya  goon

Choss exists on a spectrum. General discourse on mountain project however seems to not even acknowledge that there is a spectrum. The entire concept of choss is not even agreed upon. Take index for example, I love Index but to say it is the best rock quality in Washington isn't true. By most metrics Darrington has far superior rock (significant less rock fall events, talus, geologic age).

Let me stop ya right there to say aside from rock fall events those have very little to do with rock quality. Some of the best boulder fields in the world are just talus fields and young rock can be amazing rock as well

 The consensus among washington climbers is that Index is a way way way more fun place to climb than Darrington.  People conflate rock quality with climbing quality. 

I agree, however there is typically a correlation more often than not.

I would choose red rocks over many many crags, but hearing the FA account of ephinerene doesn't really sell the rock quality. 

Have you even climbed Epinephrine? Lol 

Also, I would say the best of the best rock you could hit with a hammer and tell no difference. I don't think any locals would be psyched about me taking a hammer to the rock in red rocks, but people probably wouldn't even care in index.

Two different rock types, two different environments, too many variables. Apples to oranges argument. 

Finally lets talk about hard limestone, both Joe Kinder and Darek Kroll talk about how rifle is held together mostly with glue. Does that make the climbing bad?

No, but Rifle is choss and everyone knows that. Ethics and the time it was developed allowed Rifle to become what it is

When I was in red rock I climbed Yakk Crack and Fear/Loathing both considered classic, I just wouldn't consider them classic because the rock is bomber. 

I haven’t climbed Yakk Crack in close to a decade but still remember it so it couldn’t be that bad. I feel like it loses classic point for being at one of the most shit shows of a crag in Red Rocks. I also don’t remember saying that classic routes had to have bomber rock….

 What proof do you want?

If there was sufficient proof would it still be a conspiracy?

LL2 wrote:

I'm just pleased that this thread remained lighthearted and fun for six and a half pages before the Puppy Lovr haters piled on. Y'all need to get a life.

My bad, as repentance I'm now friends with Puppy on insta.

Jordan Wilsonwrote:

My bad, as repentance I'm now friends with Puppy on insta.

LL2wrote:

I'm just pleased that this thread remained lighthearted and fun for six and a half pages before the Puppy Lovr haters piled on. Y'all need to get a life.

Yup, once someone brought Obama into it I knew it'd be all downhill. Time to turn off notifications for this thread. Was fun while it lasted. 

Mark Starrwrote:

Yup, once someone brought Obama into it I knew it'd be all downhill. Time to turn off notifications for this thread. Was fun while it lasted. 

Thanks, Obama. 

Ice climbing.

There is ZERO rational reason for any part of it, so it absolutely fits the criterion for a devious plot to part fools with their money, potentially their body parts (more money) and also drive up the price of hot chocolate.

H.