Where to live in Germany

We are planning to move to Germany next year for work, and right now the focus is around Munich area, or more general south of Germany. We are a bit flexible but we couldn't quite figure out the real outdoor climbing situation, and thus can't decide where is best to live.  The places we are considering are broader Munich area, or maybe Roseheim which brings us closer to the Alps.  Or should we consider Nuremberg for Frankenjura?  Any other places we should consider?

The criteria we are looking for, or our situations are as below:

1. We are Asian families, so want to make sure it would be an immigrants friendly communities, and we won't be completely out of place.  We traveled around Munich for a week, and feel pretty fine.  But not sure about other small towns/villages.  Would that be non-issue in most Germany?  Any type of place we should avoid?
2. We have a 2 year old toddler, so look to have some public child care facilities.  In Munich, it looks quite competitive and challenging to arrange. 
3. Easy access to climbing, and hopefully for a good portion of the year.  We are now living in Front Ranges in CO, so we may be a bit spoiled on the access (and the weather).  We will be working US EST hours, so if there are easy access that we can spend a few hours climbing (with driving and approach) in the morning, it would huge plus.  Is that asking too much unless we live in real small mountain villages?  What's the access to crags like from Rosenheim? 
4. We don't boulder, but enjoy other forms of climbing, i.e. sports, trad and alpine.  So having access to all these varieties is a plus for us.  Therefore, we suspect being closer to Dolomite may be great (IF we could find a baby sitter for a whole day in Dolomite).  Ideally we don't want to limit ourselves to just sports climbing, so Nuremberg/Frankenjura area may not be optimal? 
5. Lower cost of living is definitely preferred.  Likely we would buy a car for climbing access no matter where we go.  Even if we ended up in Munich, we are also trying to see what outskirts towns may make more sense for us (instead of the more city center areas).
6. We do not speak the languages yet but we will try to pick it up. 

Anyone has any insights, suggestions, experiences?

I'd go for (greater) Munich. It's an easygoing city with lots of different cultures and relatively easy access to lots of different forms of outdoor recreation. And not entirely unimportant, German language not required - which might be a bit of an issue in the more rural areas and smaller cities such as Rosenheim. 

Munich is the most expensive city in Germany and for childcare you should have booked a place when you were born! There's realistically no climbing for a quick evening session, maybe an hour by car to anything much.

Rosenheim is kinda uninteresting and there is a fair amount of also uninteresting climbing in the near but easy access to the better stuff in Austria if the traffic allows.

Nurnburg it's the Frankenjura or a three hour drive to something else, cheaper though especially out in the sticks and more chance of childcare I'd guess.

I'd also look further down to the west in the Allgau, there is a lot of climbing, nearer to the alpine stuff and cheaper.

For rental costs look at https://suedbayerische-immobilien.de/Karte-Mietspiegel-Mietpreise-Bayern

There will be similar for Baden-Wüttenberg as well.

Cheap cost of living, cosmopolitan, good access to climbing: choose two!

I've have visited Nürnberg, Bayreuth, Gößweinstein, Pottenstein -  'Frankenjura' - with east asians. These places are all very white but they never said they felt uncomfortable. In some parts of northern Italy we got the hard stares, there is some anti-Chinese feeling due to the perceived competition to local manufacturing, but this was more in the Po valley than the mountain areas. It has also been a minor issue in parts of rural Switzerland and rural SW France.

We arranged ad hoc childcare in Bayreuth when we went to the opera. Wasn't outrageously costly. Childcare is always expensive in big cities, just try London!

Nürnberg could be good for a morning of sport climbing before work and it is an attractive small city, you wouldn't feel completely out in the sticks. As Jim says, it is quite a way to the mountains though. 

Racism at least in southern Germany is kinda subtle but doesn't really involve Asiatics, there's more distrust of northern and eastern Germans. There are so few anyway and apart from the Vietnamese cigarette mafia and the odd drug triad up in the Ruhr and Berlin they are just seen as people who cook food and have Asian shops. Munich has a community but that's about it for the south.

Regensburg is nicer than Nuremburg for sure and has climbing within easy reach (evening sessions or whatever, maybe 15-30 mins drive) and is not too far from the Alps or the Frankenjura, about one and a half hours by car (technically Regensburg is also in the Frankenjura but not the northern bit, the climbing area is the Southern Frankenjura).

Does it have to be in Germany? Vienna meets most of the requirements you are looking for. Let me know and I can elaborate. 

Jim Tittwrote:

Munich is the most expensive city in Germany and for childcare you should have booked a place when you were born! There's realistically no climbing for a quick evening session, maybe an hour by car to anything much.

Rosenheim is kinda uninteresting and there is a fair amount of also uninteresting climbing in the near but easy access to the better stuff in Austria if the traffic allows.

Nurnburg it's the Frankenjura or a three hour drive to something else, cheaper though especially out in the sticks and more chance of childcare I'd guess.

I'd also look further down to the west in the Allgau, there is a lot of climbing, nearer to the alpine stuff and cheaper.

For rental costs look at https://suedbayerische-immobilien.de/Karte-Mietspiegel-Mietpreise-Bayern

There will be similar for Baden-Wüttenberg as well.

Thanks a lot for the information.  We see there was some climbing close to Resenheim, but wasn’t sure how good they are. If they are very crappy it probably isn’t worthwhile living there.

Interesting suggestions on Allgau.  We will look it up a bit. And thanks for link on the rental cost. We will check it out.

As I mentioned above, we may be spoiled by the access and good weather around Boulder CO. Maybe we will have to live in Munich, climbing in the gyms during weekdays, and try to get our on the weekends if the weather is good.

Phil Awrote:

Does it have to be in Germany? Vienna meets most of the requirements you are looking for. Let me know and I can elaborate. 

Unfortunately Austria is not possibles.  We will need to move to Europe with a job, and the choices are now between Germany and France.  Given the economic circumstances, Germany  appears to be a better choice for us.  

duncan...wrote:

Cheap cost of living, cosmopolitan, good access to climbing: choose two!

I've have visited Nürnberg, Bayreuth, Gößweinstein, Pottenstein -  'Frankenjura' - with east asians. These places are all very white but they never said they felt uncomfortable. In some parts of northern Italy we got the hard stares, there is some anti-Chinese feeling due to the perceived competition to local manufacturing, but this was more in the Po valley than the mountain areas. It has also been a minor issue in parts of rural Switzerland and rural SW France.

We arranged ad hoc childcare in Bayreuth when we went to the opera. Wasn't outrageously costly. Childcare is always expensive in big cities, just try London!

Nürnberg could be good for a morning of sport climbing before work and it is an attractive small city, you wouldn't feel completely out in the sticks. As Jim says, it is quite a way to the mountains though. 

Thanks a lot.  Understood that we can’t have everything. Thanks for sharing your experience in various areas. They are very helpful.

Rosenheim is in effect Munich anyway, they are only 40mins apart. More relevant is which side of Munich one lives since going round is slower than actually going anywhere. I've lived right in the center and it's a hassle going anywhere by car, in the end I used a park and ride in the north and used the underground rail system to get around.

The climbing near Rosenheim is okay and the local area for Munich anyway but I'm talking about within 15 minutes from Rosenheim, push it out to an hour or so and you are in the Austrian Alps so big stuff like the Wilde Kaiser or the Zillertal.

Jim Tittwrote:

Rosenheim is in effect Munich anyway, they are only 40mins apart. More relevant is which side of Munich one lives since going round is slower than actually going anywhere. I've lived right in the center and it's a hassle going anywhere by car, in the end I used a park and ride in the north and used the underground rail system to get around.

The climbing near Rosenheim is okay and the local area for Munich anyway but I'm talking about within 15 minutes from Rosenheim, push it out to an hour or so and you are in the Austrian Alps so big stuff like the Wilde Kaiser or the Zillertal.

Thanks a lot, Jim!  Those are very helpful. I looked up the places that you mentioned in Austria, they definitely looks interesting!  Does these places around Innsbruck has a relatively long season?  Any guidebook you would recommend?  It’s okay if in Germany which will just force us to learn a bit more of the language.

I looked up the limited English information available on MP around innsbruckthere also seems to be quite some climbing areas west of Innsbruck, which is easier to access from the other side.  Should we consider Garmisch- Partenkirchen?

For climbing “15 minutes” to Rosenheim, anywhere we can find some information? Any guidebook?

Definitely agree on having a car in Munich.  We used to live in NYC and trying to get to the Gunks on weekends is a royal pain regardless how we arrange the car situation.  That’s how we figure place outside of the center city may work better.  Other places that we are considering are like Tutzing, or around those two lakes.  We can still get to Munich with public transportation on the rare occasion that we want to acces the city, while the living and climbing situation could be improved.  

The specific guide for around Rosenheim is called "Out of Rosenheim" by Markus Stadler. However I believe this area is covered by one of the volumes of "Kletterführer Bayerische Voralpen" by the same author, the three books cover the sport climbing along the Bavarian/Austrian border.

Over the border you are into the Tirol and the "Climbers Paradise Tirol" which like an organisation which covers the climbing in the whole area, it's government organised and everything is web based so you just download or get the app. Never used it personally though.

The rich of Munich live in places like Tutzing, they too want to have a boat on the lake, easy access to their ski hut and a short commute into the city to earn more money! Guess it depends on your income though. The next area (Starnberg) has the highest proportion of millionaires in Germany!

Garmisch is cheaper, basically it's a tourist town with limited employment options and that bit further from Munich, the actual climbing right near Garmisch also limited in my experience. Weekends/holidays the traffic is terrible from Munich. Quick to go skiing if you live there though, the ski-lifts start more or less in town.

I currently live in Stuttgart and moved here from Denver last year. I feel like the access to climbing in Germany is different than in CO. Instead of a few large areas (Clear Creek, Boulder Canyon, Shelf, etc) there are tons of crags sprinkled throughout the region. Just for the Schwäbischen Alb Region, I have four guide books with thousands of routes each. Once you get into Austria, Italy, and other countries the amount of climbing options explode. 

To address some of your other questions.

Because Stuttgart is in a region with several large multi-national corporations, I think people around here are used to foreigners from all over the world living here. I'd imagine Munich is similar. 

I'm a single guy without kids so I can't comment on the child care stuff.

As far as housing expenses. I've heard if you are a German you'll pay a much more affordable rate for house than a non-German. I think it is assumed a foreigner works for Bosch, Porsche, or some other company that pays a lot of money to live in Germany, thus can afford higher rent. Smaller villages will have cheaper rent but that comes with its own challenges of finding the resources to search for a place. 

As far as the  language goes. I'm in the process of learning German but it's definitely a hard language (for me at least). I can get by with basic phrases in large cities. Around places like the Frankenjura it can be a bit more difficult to find English speakers. 

If you have any other questions, feel free to PM me. 

I've included a couple of images from the cover of the guide books to give you an idea of where some of the climbing is.

Inside cover from the Out of Rosenheim book

Inside cover showing some of the other areas

Andrew Cwrote:

I currently live in Stuttgart and moved here from Denver last year. I feel like the access to climbing in Germany is different than in CO. Instead of a few large areas (Clear Creek, Boulder Canyon, Shelf, etc) there are tons of crags sprinkled throughout the region. Just for the Schwäbischen Alb Region, I have four guide books with thousands of routes each. Once you get into Austria, Italy, and other countries the amount of climbing options explode. 

To address some of your other questions.

Because Stuttgart is in a region with several large multi-national corporations, I think people around here are used to foreigners from all over the world living here. I'd imagine Munich is similar. 

I'm a single guy without kids so I can't comment on the child care stuff.

As far as housing expenses. I've heard if you are a German you'll pay a much more affordable rate for house than a non-German. I think it is assumed a foreigner works for Bosch, Porsche, or some other company that pays a lot of money to live in Germany, thus can afford higher rent. Smaller villages will have cheaper rent but that comes with its own challenges of finding the resources to search for a place. 

As far as the  language goes. I'm in the process of learning German but it's definitely a hard language (for me at least). I can get by with basic phrases in large cities. Around places like the Frankenjura it can be a bit more difficult to find English speakers. 

If you have any other questions, feel free to PM me. 

I've included a couple of images from the cover of the guide books to give you an idea of where some of the climbing is.

Inside cover from the Out of Rosenheim book

Inside cover showing some of the other areas

Thanks Andrew for this, and also thanks Jim for the above comments!   Those are very helpful!  I bought the Out of Rosenheim guidebook from the German publisher, and hopefully it will get here soon.  I also separately bought a English dolomite guidebook, and looks like the climbing could be quite amazing.

Our target move date is September next year (if things work out as planned), so we still have a bit of time to figure things out.  Right now we are still thinking about maybe some smaller town or area south of Munich city center (Rosenheim or Munich suburb).  We are financially okay but have no interest or preference living in a rich people’s area.  Actually we are taking some quite significant financial hit by moving to Europe, but figure we want to take a shot while we can still take some risks in our lives.  We are learning the language.  Too early to tell how much we can progress on that, but definitely hoping to be able to at least navigate through simple life necessities.