Fatal accident at Tahquitz today

Nick Goldsmith wrote:

Arnt you the expert.  I knew my climb intimately and the whole damn roof fell off.   It is absolutely possible that the rain event caused an unlikely rock to fall regardless of weather or not the expert said it was impossible.   Witnesses said there was rockfall,. without a complete investigation we don't know if it was human caused or a weather / geological time event. Experience tells me that it is more probable that the falling block was a failed anchor but again without a thorough investigation we don't know that to be  fact. 

What he's saying is that if the two climbers fell from where witnesses place them, there's almost nothing above them that could fall like that. Not impossible, but unlikely. I know that area, too, and this is what it looks like once past the initial 20-30 feet of steepness above Pine Tree Ledge.

Todd Berlier wrote:

in the interest of education ill share a story that happened to me:

circa 1995 on Arm and Hammer in Bells canyon in SLC. climb faces south/southeast. wearing cotton shorts and t-shirt. 0% chance of rain. inside the deep chimney at anchors at top of pitch one. massive rain and hail and chimney turned into a funnel for the water and hail. partner rapped first. the hail was building up faster than i could wipe it off. when it was my turn, i was hypothermic, violently shaking and having a hard time hooking up my rappel device. i remember thinking, "that'll work," and staring dumbfounded at my setup, my brain screaming thats not right, but not understanding why and thinking you done this thousands of times, its right, then no, somethings wrong. i had worked so hard getting the rope into the atc with my clubs for hands that were shaking so hard and i thought it was setup correctly, when i hadn't actually clipped the rope to the locking biner. once it finally dawned on me what i almost did i started having to fight back from crying. i got down to the ground and the rain and hail stopped as fast as it came and got my extra layers on and laid in the sun and fell asleep from exhaustion for about an hour.

rip and my most sincere condolences to family and friends. 

We were doing Royal Arches in Yosemite.  My usual partner and I had did it the season before in a couple of hours.  So this time, we had more people with us and didn't properly estimate how long it would take us.  So we got the the repels late in the day.  We made a plan that I would go to the first repel and use the whole rope and get it set up for the next repel station.  I set up the figure eight with a big bitter end and connected to the rope that had a knot at the end.  Since I was rushing, just as I was to unclip from the anchor I stopped and double checked everything.  I was connected to the bitter end.  I would have repelled a couple feet and would have dropped 1500'.  Just as I noticed this Glenn showed up and I showed him how close I had come to the ultimate mistake.  I had never heard of someone doing this but at least knew the dangers of repelling and rushing.  Those alarm bells, luckily, went off just in time.  I have since heard of one woman who made this same mistake and died.   

Tradiban wrote:

And just because you had one fridge fall doesn’t mean it happens “all the time”.

I won’t believe it until I see obvious evidence of it. Regardless, I can tell you a random piece of rock did not fall on them from above because I know the area intimately.

Ultimately anyone is free to believe what they want until irrefutably proven otherwise but I urge everyone to remember that their safety is on themselves and they have the power to control their destiny 99.999999999% of the time.

So treat every anchor and risk you take climbing with the utmost respect, alot of the time it’s the only thing between you and The End. 

Large rockfall happens LOTS, even on rock faces that seem very secure. I work in geology / geotechnical engineering on landslides, roadways, etc, and have to deal with it all the time. There are a lot of different mechanisms for why that happens and it depends on the rock type, but it very frequently is caused by water. That can be because of rises in pore pressure (water filling openings in particles or fractures), the swelling force of clays, dissolution of cement binding sedimentary rocks, or just general particulate weathering. 

I don't know that area, but looking at photos it is clearly an exfoliating dome of granite, which has pervasive jointing and fracturing. I don't know what in particular makes you rule that out so quickly, but it should be pretty easy to get a before and after picture of that face and know for sure eh?

Ian Lauer wrote:

Large rockfall happens LOTS, even on rock faces that seem very secure. I work in geology / geotechnical engineering on landslides, roadways, etc, and have to deal with it all the time. There are a lot of different mechanisms for why that happens and it depends on the rock type, but it very frequently is caused by water. That can be because of rises in pore pressure (water filling openings in particles or fractures), the swelling force of clays, dissolution of cement binding sedimentary rocks, or just general particulate weathering. 

I don't know that area, but looking at photos it is clearly an exfoliating dome of granite, which has pervasive jointing and fracturing. I don't know what in particular makes you rule that out so quickly, but it should be pretty easy to get a before and after picture of that face and know for sure eh?

In “chossy” crags that may be true but Tahquitz is pretty clean and the area where the incident happened is particularly clean. Plus, I know the area well and keep track of the loose stuff. (If this happened in the NW recess I might have a different opinion) Acts of god are extremely rare and unfortunately the chance that they were in the wrong place at the wrong time is extremely small.

In addition the set up of their gear when found points toward an rap or anchor failure. 

The point is to remind people to stay vigilant for their own safety. Throwing up hands and claiming God’s will is backwards thinking without strong evidence of divine intervention.

Edit: I don’t care to be right in this debate, I am just giving my pragmatic opinion based on all the evidence I am getting and the experience I have with the mountain. I hope people hear that “dickhead Tradiban” ringing in their ears next time they consider a shitty rap and that any conclusion we come to here brings at least some closure to the people who knew them.

Tradiban wrote:

In “chossy” crags that may be true but Tahquitz is pretty clean and the area where the incident happened is particularly clean. Plus, I know the area well and keep track of the loose stuff. (If this happened in the NW recess I might have a different opinion) Acts of god are extremely rare and unfortunately the chance that they were in the wrong place at the wrong time is extremely small.

In addition the set up of their gear when found points toward an rap or anchor failure. 

The point is to remind people to stay vigilant for their own safety. Throwing up hands and claiming God’s will is backwards thinking without strong evidence of divine intervention.

Edit: I don’t care to be right in this debate, I am just giving my pragmatic opinion based on all the evidence I am getting and the experience I have with the mountain. I hope people hear that “dickhead Tradiban” ringing in their ears next time they consider a shitty rap and that any conclusion we come to here brings at least some closure to the people who knew them.

Yeah, I'll take your intimate knowledge of the area over my speculation regardless. Just pointing out that large rockfall is a lot more common than people think. Everything at the surface of the earth (and a ways below) is constantly in a state of weathering whether its immediately visible or not. 

Tradiban wrote:

I don’t care to be right in this debate,

Andrew Rice wrote:

What he's saying is that if the two climbers fell from where witnesses place them, there's almost nothing above them that could fall like that. Not impossible, but unlikely. I know that area, too, and this is what it looks like once past the initial 20-30 feet of steepness above Pine Tree Ledge.

Andrew, I think you're too far to the climber's right there, they fell from above Piton Pooper, not as clean an area as shown in your pic but still void of any obvious blocks.

Ian Lauer wrote:

Yeah, I'll take your intimate knowledge of the area over my speculation regardless. Just pointing out that large rockfall is a lot more common than people think. Everything at the surface of the earth (and a ways below) is constantly in a state of weathering whether its immediately visible or not.

I don't mean to totally discount your expertise, there is random rockfall on many true "alpine" routes but this just isn't one of those. It's just the wrong mind-set to approach this mountain that you could die up there and there's nothing you can do about it.

If I thought the concept that there is plenty of random rockfall would deter people from climbing Tahquitz I would trumpet it, but I know plenty of people will come anyway and I think it best they focus on what is much more likely to kill them, mistakes of judgement.   

isn't anyone gonna play grammar police here? there are many climbers i would like to repel but not rappel with.

M M wrote:

isn't anyone gonna play grammar police here? there are many climbers i would like to repel but not rappel with.

This is not the thread for your snarky humor.

Gunkiemike wrote:

This is not the thread for your snarky humor.

you have repelled me.

Honestly all of this speculation and bickering is worse IMO

Gunkiemike wrote:

This is not the thread for your snarky humor.

I think at this point we could all use a little levity.

There is a bush with a mess of roots above Piton Pooper that I typically belay from, on the way to Upper Royal's Arch. If we are in the right spot here, RMRU could check for broken roots. It's not a textbook belay exactly and it can be backed up with a couple marginal small cams.

Piton Pooper is brilliantly steep and exposed and you can see the whole sweep of the west face and the friction topout from up there. It's all air and I'd often exchange pleasantries with climbers hundreds of feet down like they were standing next to me! A beautiful day ... we'd say .. 

As climbers we see some beautiful things, but it is a dangerous game we play. Upper Royal's is my favorite place on the rock and I'll think of Gavin and Chelsea when I'm up there :)

Upper Royal's is my favorite place on the rock and I'll think of Gavin and Chelsea when I'm up there :)

Friend of Chelsea’s. If there are any locals who would be willing to take me up Dave’s/Piton next time you go, I think it would bring me some closure. I have multipitch experience, but I’m in no head space to lead. 

Paulina Bryant wrote:

Friend of Chelsea’s. If there are any locals who would be willing to take me up Dave’s/Piton next time you go, I think it would bring me some closure. I have multipitch experience, but I’m in no head space to lead. 

It would be an honor for me to do so, but there are plenty of worthy “locals” as well. DM me and we can arrange something or at least can connect you with a few people.

Tradiban wrote:

I agree, people always seem to see a “refrigerator sized block”, that’s a pretty big block, something that big usually doesn’t cut loose and I can tell you there definitely wasn’t anything of that size around were they fell.

As any sort of investigator knows witnesses are notoriously unreliable so I wouldn’t believe that part unless a missing block is identified.

I've lost count of how many refrigerator sized blocks, often we'll chalked that have released from cliffs I've been on..  But I am on the heavy 200# size. 

Eli Helmuth wrote:

I've lost count of how many refrigerator sized blocks, often we'll chalked that have released from cliffs I've been on..  But I am on the heavy 200# size. 

“You people” climb choss. Stop that.

Post less. Listen more.

Gavin Escobar 

support for his family he left behind
https://gofund.me/bd5f14b0

John Hinshaw wrote:

Gavin Escobar 

support for his family he left behind
https://gofund.me/bd5f14b0

Nice gesture but the dude made better than 5 million dollars over the last few years, had a full NFL pension, plus maybe active fireman's benefits. Adding a gofundme to every mishap these days seems like a bit much.

Russ Walling wrote:

Nice gesture but the dude made better than 5 million dollars over the last few years, had a full NFL pension, plus maybe a firemans pension. Adding a gofundme to every mishap these days seems like a bit much.

“The dude” died, tragically, so have some damn respect, for him and his partner. Living people have used gofundme for much less, looking for a lot more. Am I donating, no, but I’m not upset that there’s a gofundme page for him. Take the time to also look into how pensions work.  
He went to climb, as we all do, and did not come home, nor did his partner.  It is awful, made worse by 6 pages of nonsense speculation that has danced around the same two scenarios. Understanding an accident to learn from it is one thing, talking about the exact two scenarios over and over again is plain ridiculous.  Those who have “intimate knowledge” of the route and have been speculating here, should just go climb up there to find out for themselves and report back. Otherwise, let people grieve, or support them emotionally by being respectful and honoring two climbers that died doing what we all love.