Totem or offset cams for big wall pin scars?

Going to be attempting some big walls and just wondering what is the consensus regarding the two options.  Prefer not to buy another two sets of cams -will totems just fill the need of offsets in general ?  Thanks 

What rock type?

Totems

the usual suspects.  Spaceshot (sandstone) and Washington column (granite). Thanks! 

Totems

Totems, though you'll also need some offsets for sizes smaller than the black totem.

I've found the blue/green offset alien best for actual pin scars. Slightly larger flaring cracks black totem all day. Totems are definitely more confidence inspiring.

Can't speak for spaceshot but on WA column (solo aid) I believe I had 2 or 3 blue/greens and 2 black totems, did not regret. 

Did Spaceshot without any offsets, had all totems and loved it. You'll need some really small stuff for the C2 crux pitch. Ball nut was pretty nice

Off sets are great but you are limited in how you can place them.   Off set lobes are going to be either right or left oriented depending on how they were put together and unless you have one or more of each you are screwed if the lobes don’t quite work for a certain placement.   Totem however don’t have this issue, if it doesn’t work one way just flip it around and try it the other way.  You can’t do that with off sets.   Totems are much more versatile.  

As for Spaceshot I found off set nuts more important than off set cams.   That crux pitch crack is getting shallower and cams won’t work as good as good nut craft there IMO.  

Agree with christoph - small offsets are money and go where totems won't. Part of the problem is how bulky the cabling of totems are. Plus you can get 2 offset cams for the price of a totem. I carry both.

I guess I’m buying both!    Thanks a ton! 

Kevin Mokracekwrote:

Off sets are great but you are limited in how you can place them.   Off set lobes are going to be either right or left oriented depending on how they were put together and unless you have one or more of each you are screwed if the lobes don’t quite work for a certain placement.   Totem however don’t have this issue, if it doesn’t work one way just flip it around and try it the other way.  You can’t do that with off sets.   Totems are much more versatile.  

As for Spaceshot I found off set nuts more important than off set cams.   That crux pitch crack is getting shallower and cams won’t work as good as good nut craft there IMO.  

Never thought about that. Interesting but definitely a bummer if not put together the way you need for the route. 

akafaultlinewrote:

Never thought about that. Interesting but definitely a bummer if not put together the way you need for the route. 

Its something to think about when buying.  One of the problems with buying online is you can't choose lobe orientation, that's a good argument for buying from a local shop, you can go through the inventory and pick one of each.

Kevin Mokracekwrote:

Its something to think about when buying.  One of the problems with buying online is you can't choose lobe orientation, that's a good argument for buying from a local shop, you can go through the inventory and pick one of each.

Have you seen other brands offsets come in both orientations? Are yours shown old Metolius? 

Metolius Offset Master Cams up to Purple/Blue and then Totems.

Maybe once a route your left or right master cams will work better but it sure as heck won’t be mandatory. It’ll be one of those things that’s  “Cool!” but no where near a deal breaker.  

K Gowrote:

Have you seen other brands offsets come in both orientations? Are yours shown old Metolius? 

Since they are all made by hand I don’t think the person assembling them puts much thought into it.   I think it’s probably the same for all brands.  

I think the L R orientation is just a little more of a deal than Mark eludes.   Heck I end up flipping regular cams quite often to get the best placements.   Are Totems mandatory or needed?   Heck no, you can make do without them but they are pretty damn cool and make janky placements a little less janky.  

Kevin Mokracekwrote:

Since they are all made by hand I don’t think the person assembling them puts much thought into it.   I think it’s probably the same for all brands.  

I don't believe that's true. The parts required for the 2 chiralities are different (usually, including the cams in your photo). From a logistics/efficiency view it wouldn't make any sense to manufacture more parts and also make assembly harder. For some BD offsets the lobes are even different than the non-offset versions, so in that case it would require totally new parts.

Somewhere there was a post saying 90% of Metolious offsets have one chirality and 10% the other.

From what I've seen all X4s offsets have one chirality and all Z4 offsets have the opposite. I would speculate that the change was intentional.

Austin Donisanwrote:

I don't believe that's true. The parts required for the 2 chiralities are different (usually, including the cams in your photo). From a logistics/efficiency view it wouldn't make any sense to manufacture more parts and also make assembly harder. For some BD offsets the lobes are even different than the non-offset versions, so in that case it would require totally new parts.

Somewhere there was a post saying 90% of Metolious offsets have one chirality and 10% the other.

From what I've seen all X4s offsets have one chirality and all Z4 offsets have the opposite. I would speculate that the change was intentional.

Ok, if I have to look up the meaning of a word to understand what you are talking about when we are talking about climbing cams something is wrong.  You are talking to a fireman, I only know how to put the wet stuff on the red stuff lol.  

 Chirality - Wikipedia 

Sounds like offset cams have chirality but standard cams are achiral.  Simple?  

True, normal cams are not chiral, offset cams are chiral.  A simified definition of chirality is saying an object has "handedness," a right and left version.

A more rigorous definition is to say an object is chiral if it is not superimposable with its mirror image.

Everyday objects that are chiral: your hands, a golf club, a corkscrew, a shoe, an Xbox controller.

Objects which are not chiral: a tennis racket, a Frisbee, a baseball.

Austin Donisanwrote:

I don't believe that's true. The parts required for the 2 chiralities are different (usually, including the cams in your photo). From a logistics/efficiency view it wouldn't make any sense to manufacture more parts and also make assembly harder. For some BD offsets the lobes are even different than the non-offset versions, so in that case it would require totally new parts.

Somewhere there was a post saying 90% of Metolious offsets have one chirality and 10% the other.

From what I've seen all X4s offsets have one chirality and all Z4 offsets have the opposite. I would speculate that the change was intentional.

This is what I was looking for, thanks! So the BD solution could be get a set of X4 and Z4 offsets! 

Just today at Index (free climbing tho), I saw a potential offset cam placement but because of the lobe orientation one lobe was right on the crack edge. I took it out and used... A black totem, which I could flip around. Whelp. 

akafaultlinewrote:

Going to be attempting some big walls and just wondering what is the consensus regarding the two options.  Prefer not to buy another two sets of cams -will totems just fill the need of offsets in general ?  Thanks 

From my experience, Totems are a 9.4 on the scale of one to ten. Camalots are about a 7 and Metolius TCU cams are a 7.8. Offset Aliens are a 10. The aluminum is softer.  All of those cams will do the job. How much $ do you want to pay to get them to go to 11?