Climber Charles Barrett Arrested for Yosemite Sexual Assaults

Christian Heschwrote:

apologies as I was on mobile (big hands, dislike typing) and prefer brevity in general... but I should have expounded that I was in concurrence for the thought of "why didn't they do something...and what other parts of the story don't we know..." as clearly there must be more than can be written in a short article or even a police report. Hopefully any of those six don't feel thrown under the bus, as that certainly wasn't my intent. Kudos to all of them for taking the time and effort to testify.

want to reiterate, thanks to everyone who has taken the initial dumpster fire and turned it into a thoughtful conversation, one that seems to have provoked a much deeper analysis - of both the immediate issue and associated/underlying issues - than many of us would have otherwise brought into our lives. 

I agree with this.  I've watched this thread from afar, and having a significant other that's been attacked more than once, and actually had a stranger at her university wander onto the campus, into her office building walk into her office and shut the door behind him while he trapped her in there, I completely understand things on both sides of the conflict/violence table.  I have no opinion to offer on Charles other than it doesn't look good and if he's convicted, I hope he doesn't get out. I don't wish "violation" victimhood on him and retributive justice doesn't really do anything except temporarily quell the feeling of bloodlust and justice that we all feel when someone close to us gets hurt (or just someone that's vulnerable- smaller/weaker, etc.).  It does no good in the long run.  However, this alleged piece of shit probably shouldn't be walking around in society if he's guilty of what he's being accused of and DEFINITELY not around climbing areas.  

To the idea that 6 people should or could have done something- I used to be one of those people that would immediately scoff and think "cowards!!!".  I've come to realize after a ton of reading and years of research on the topic, that most human beings, believe it or not, have an extreme aversion to physical conflict and violence.  There are scores of accounts from eyewitnesses and from the "victims" (not quite an accurate term to describe willing military combatants) themselves that when it came down to it and it was hand to hand and bayonette time, they ultimately chose to be killed rather than kill.  It's a visceral instinct that's not easily overcome.  

People that grew up rough, embedded in a subculture that promotes and encourages violence (honor culture is rife with this) jumping on someone to save someone else might not be that big of a thing, but to MOST people that grow up in more civilized parts of society, which is the case for most people that are climbers (just my experience) inserting oneself into an already violent altercation isn't something that can be readily expected.  

Quick story, when I was a young father, and in WalMart (this is going on 20 years ago) I saw this guy yank on his pregnant gf/wife's hair and with pursed lips, yanked her head toward his as he screamed into her ear from about a half inch away.  I saw red and can barely remember grabbing the guy by his hoodie and slinging him into the vitamin aisle to the degree that the whole thing was knocked over causing a calamity of 1000 rattly bottles striking a tiled floor.  I freaked out once I realized what I'd done and ran out of the store hoping that the cops wouldn't be called on me and hoping that it didn't make things worse for this young lady.  The point is, I didn't think, I just reacted, and that was based almost entirely upon the environment I grew up in, bolstered by formal training I had received.  For people that didn't grow up like that-  in violent, dysfunctional atmospheres, and aren't trained to stay calm in situations that involve physical altercations, that instinct is the exact opposite.  They have an instinctual reaction as well, and it's to try to keep the peace and not escalate by abstaining from engaging in physical conflict.  

It's very easy to say they *should* have done this or "I would have XYZ"- just saying that's very difficult to make that statement with any real meaning behind it.  The human psyche when it comes to violence varies wildly from person to person.  Sorry for the drift, just thought this was relevant to the direction the conversation has shifted.

Not to continue this drift further, but it IS apropos to these and any future situations related to this thread…mental training, prep, awareness, and commitment  is as much/more important than physical ability to intervene.  

Anyone caught completely off guard and unprepared is more likely to react “deer in the headlights” in an unfamiliar and surprising circumstance 

Edit:  obviously typing mine as the above were being posted 

Adam Burch wrote:

This isn't to disparage the people who where there when he punched a woman in the head, and then continued to punch her as she lay on the ground - that's not to say they shouldn't be disparaged, but I wasn't there so I don't know ALL the details.

I do know that it sounds like many are looking for a scenario where everyone intervening escapes unscathed while the attacker is subdued.  I guess I should be glad I was raised correctly and would place keeping myself from getting punched lower on the priority list and distracting/deflecting a violent attack by a strong male climber on an incapacitated woman higher on the priority list?

Sadly, the research shows that people that think and would react instinctively like you are more rare than not.

I don't think my attitude is rare if you surveyed the general male population, just more rare in the vacuum of the male climber population. 

Your attitude isn't rare, but again research on the subject (look at books like On Killing by Dave Grossman or On Aggression by Konrad Lorenz, etc.) suggests that an attitude of thinking "I would do this or this in this situation" is just internal posturing for most people.  The attitude that they have, and the actions that they would actually take if placed in the middle of or as a witness of an altercation are usually two distinctly different things.

 

I do know I'll be advising my daughter to try and make friends and spend time with non-climbers as she ages into a teenager and beyond.

LOL, yeah, strong fingers and biceps don't mean much without the psychology to go with it.

Big yikes, guys.  

Meh, it's human nature.  Make of it what you will.

Cherokee Nuneswrote:

If you don't want a dogpile maybe YOU should refrain from YOUR bullshit.

Cherokee Nunes wrote:

If you don't want a dogpile maybe YOU should refrain from YOUR bullshit.

Why the attack on Eastern Sierra Old Guy? I feel like there is some validity to his question. A little humility goes a long way on a public forum. JS

Just want to highlight that people who have experienced trauma as a result of these events are very likely reading this thread (ditto any other thread about a traumatic event). Obviously thread drift is hard to avoid, and it can lead to worthwhile conversations. Still, I think it's worth taking a moment to try to put oneself in those people's shoes and think about how these comments might affect them. There's always the option to create a new thread for more abstract/general discussion about bystander intervention, how to reconcile cognitive dissonance when a bad person also has impressive accomplishments, rehabilitative vs restorative vs retributive justice, or whatever else.

Geez, guys, you sure enjoy making heaps of assumptions.

The 6 witnesses?

• May have been 6 seperate people, some (or even all) not right there, just able to see whatever they reported.
• No one on here knows what any of those people did
• No one on here knows diddly nor squat about those 6 people. Old, young, english speaking, riding by on a tour bus???
• If people see others are in closer proximity, we tend to assume those others know what's up and will do whatever. 

If you aren't trained to instant action, it takes a bit for stuff to register and try to sort out just what you are seeing, THEN figure out what, if anything, you personally can do. Some do better than others, that's not their fault nor responsibility (except when it specifically is their duty)

Would I personally insert myself in the middle of fists flying? Hell no. That would be stupid. But that does not say anything derogatory about me, and, in fact, I have inserted myself into dangerous messes now and then. Largely precisely because I am a dinky female, totally unthreatening, and stand a pretty good chance of being able to talk people down. I can say things to people that a dude can't. Just being male, can escalate things. Pretty sure  guys understand that???

Best, Helen

Etha Williamswrote:

Just want to highlight that people who have experienced trauma as a result of these events are very likely reading this thread (ditto any other thread about a traumatic event). Obviously thread drift is hard to avoid, and it can lead to worthwhile conversations. Still, I think it's worth taking a moment to try to put oneself in those people's shoes and think about how these comments might affect them. There's always the option to create a new thread for more abstract/general discussion about bystander intervention, how to reconcile cognitive dissonance when a bad person also has impressive accomplishments, rehabilitative vs restorative vs retributive justice, or whatever else.

It's page 14. Any one who reads MP should be forewarned. Besides, this thread specifically had to do with an assault, and assuming otherwise in the discussions is the reader's problem, imo.

Kinda similar to accidents and injuries vs. memorial forums, except ALL of this is part of the ugliness. Not a whole lot of 100% nice to comment on, here.

Best, Helen

Andrew Rice wrote:

For me, what is appalling is that both the violent tendencies of this guy and the sex abuser tendencies were apparently pretty widely known in the hardcore climbing community for years. I know when my friend reported her assault to the owner of the residence where it happened (who is a climber) she got gaslit and told she must have done something wrong. And that Charlie was "just being Charlie."

Unfortunately, this is all too common. So often by the time these things get public attention, they've already been an open secret for a long time. 

The case against Harvard regarding sexual harassment and assault in the Anthropology department is a vivid example for me personally. I was a grad student there when this shit was happening, and many of my colleagues and I knew (with varying levels of detail) that the Comaroffs were not safe people for female students to be around. I studied with several of the professors who signed an open letter in support of the accused, and I know at least one of them had repeatedly gaslit students when the topic came up in advising meetings. (This same professor claimed they'd had no idea of the facts of the matter when the plaintiffs' lawsuit came out.) The lawsuit is ongoing; meanwhile, John Comaroff is back teaching at Harvard.

To me that's what erodes trust in these "communities" the most. Not the fact that there are individual people who do awful things, but that there are so many people who give it a pass--including people you respected and trusted. It sends the message loud and clear that a hard FA or academic prestige is worth more than your safety. Pretty hard to want to belong to a community that holds those values.

Old lady Hwrote:

Geez, guys, you sure enjoy making heaps of assumptions.

The 6 witnesses?

• May have been 6 seperate people, some (or even all) not right there, just able to see whatever they reported.
• No one on here knows what any of those people did
• No one on here knows diddly nor squat about those 6 people. Old, young, english speaking, riding by on a tour bus???
• If people see others are in closer proximity, we tend to assume those others know what's up and will do whatever. 

If you aren't trained to instant action, it takes a bit for stuff to register and try to sort out just what you are seeing, THEN figure out what, if anything, you personally can do. Some do better than others, that's not their fault nor responsibility (except when it specifically is their duty)

Would I personally insert myself in the middle of fists flying? Hell no. That would be stupid. But that does not say anything derogatory about me, and, in fact, I have inserted myself into dangerous messes now and then. Largely precisely because I am a dinky female, totally unthreatening, and stand a pretty good chance of being able to talk people down. I can say things to people that a dude can't. Just being male, can escalate things. Pretty sure  guys understand that???

Best, Helen

You're making a lot of assumptions yourself.  

Jake Joneswrote:

Same. In what capacity?  

That depends on what "do it right" means, and if you mean subduing a large, violent person, in can be difficult but it doesn't have to be, and that's not a foregone conclusion.

Debatable.  I too have had experience and ONE properly trained person can help someone else that *should be* properly trained but isn't.  In this video, this is demonstrated quite well.  Notice the size and strength of the cop, vs. the relative size and strength of the "suspect", then look at the size of the dude that is "assisting".  The large, busting out of his uniform (fat AND muscle) cop can't control someone who appears to be of similar size and greater strength.  One well-trained, much smaller guy changes this equation quickly and dramatically.  One guy is supposed to be trained, and isn't, and one of them is trained but doesn't operate in the typical state-sanctioned position of authority, i.e. police officer.  So, they're not a well-trained team, but still manage.  I've been in this scenario a few times, and I can certainly say two things- if no one is trained, then yeah, 6 people probably would botch this up, and get injured as a result of trying to stop someone in the commissioning of a crime/violent act against another person.  You don't need a squad of SEALs though, to subdue someone that is of average size

Mission accomplished. 

Not to contribute to thread drift (cue sarcastic eye roll)...

How does one separate someone's crimes from their accomplishments? There are plenty of musicians or athletes that have done horrible things. To what degree should their accomplishments be ignored because of it? Does it change if that person is dead? Would you buy Charles's guidebook?

andrew is correct, blaming victims or witnesses is not where we want to go

this is about making the community better and that means we need to call some people out

the law will deal with CB but there are many that are complicit because how could anyone spend so much time with this guy and not know that he was a monster?

the supertopo threads have some leads like this one  supertopo.com/climbers-foru…

who is RyanD? 

he had to know what was going on

Yoda Jedi Knightwrote:

Not to contribute to thread drift (cue sarcastic eye roll)...

How does one separate someone's crimes from their accomplishments? There are plenty of musicians or athletes that have done horrible things. To what degree should their accomplishments be ignored because of it? Does it change if that person is dead? Would you buy Charles's guidebook?

Being a founding father of America tends to get you a “get out of jail free” card.

Benjamin Franklin isn’t famous for dissecting the dead bodies of his slaves.

Andrew Jackson has only very recently gotten attention for making quite a few babies with his slaves.

Abe Lincoln isn’t exactly remembered for his quote that he wouldn’t free the slaves if he thought he could win without doing so. Yes I know he wasn’t a founding father.

Face Palmwrote:

andrew is correct, blaming victims or witnesses is not where we want to go

this is about making the community better and that means we need to call some people out

the law will deal with CB but there are many that are complicit because how could anyone spend so much time with this guy and not know that he was a monster?

the supertopo threads have some leads like this one  supertopo.com/climbers-foru…

who is RyanD? 

he had to know what was going on

So now you're blaming people who knew the guy or where friends with him?  Please just take your own advice and stop.  

Andrew Rice wrote:

I think you're misunderstanding the intent of the comment. What they're asking is that this thread be allowed to focus on the Charlie Barrett arrest and directly related matters. And that people not turn it into a giant drift about childhood trauma (which we don't know if the accused suffered), mental illness (ditto), racial injustice in the criminal justice system (also not applicable) and all sorts of other hypotheticals.

The whole point of this and other forums is free exchange of opinions.
Telling people what is allowed and what is not allowed to think/to write typically doesn't work.

Close it, enough said.

Yurywrote:

The whole point of this and other forums is free exchange of opinions.
Telling people what is allowed and what is not allowed to think/to write typically doesn't work.

No one is telling anyone what to think.  Many people have suggested we not post unsubstantiated and uninformed innuendo though.   There is a difference between posting the previously mentioned and having an informed discussion.

Yurywrote:

The whole point of this and other forums is free exchange of opinions.
Telling people what is allowed and what is not allowed to think/to write typically doesn't work.

Never hurts to ask, though, that people contain their free exchange of opinions to at least the general topic being discussed in a forum. 

op wanted to inform the community and help victims to feel safe to come forward

CB has a long and frequent history of assaulting women, proof is in this thread

understanding who was involved gives us a picture of who was looking the other way, defending CB, and possibly intimidating witnesses and victims

if someone lives, climbs, and parties with a guy that has this history they are going to know what's going on

what kind of person starts a thread about "appreciating" someone who is well known for committing crimes against women? someone with the nickname RyanD

what kind of person defends the bro culture that enables these crimes?

more information about CB, here's his supertopo post history: http://www.supertopo.com/forumsearch.php?v=0&cur=0&ftr1=a&ftr2=&ftr3=&ftr4=Charlie+B+&scope=all

so many people knew him, yet nobody knew?

yeah right

Yurywrote:

The whole point of this and other forums is free exchange of opinions.
Telling people what is allowed and what is not allowed to think/to write typically doesn't work.

Expressing one's beliefs about what constitutes constructive discourse is not interfering with the free exchange of opinions--it's part of the free exchange of opinions.