The Fang at Horse Flats: To Be or Not to Be?

Hi everyone,

It seems like a local classic in LA area, The Fang (V3) is cracking/flexing. 

There's been several reports around the same time (May 14-16, 2022) claiming that it's going to break. I haven't seen it myself but I am going to check it out tomorrow (Aug. 10, 2022). Based on the comments of The Fang and The Fang Sit-Start, it's highly advisable to completely avoid this climb in fear of serious injury/death. The hold in question is a huge flake (4ft x 3ft) on an overhang and the climber will be completely underneath it as they are hugging the flake while moving up.

If the flake is flexing/cracking and serious injury/death is almost certain, should we break the flake off intentionally and controllably so no one gets hurt, or leave it to chance hoping no one gets hurt? I just don't want someone to get injured when I could have done something and would feel responsible for my lack of action. I also believe drawing a huge "X" might suffice but who's to say that'll stay with certainty?

I hope to hear more from the folks who commented on the danger of it so we can get their perspective: Eli Sills Doom Inevitable Summer Ng Erica Chan

I’d love to hear from someone who has been around it continuously for a few years: is it in worse shape now than it was before? I climbed it about 7 years ago and remember it feeling spooky, so I’m curious if more recent ticks are simply feeling the same thing or if it is actually in a worse state. 

- if you hang on the tip of the fang and load it (hang on it and bounce) while a second looks at the hairline crack where the fang connects, it moves (the space between the hairline crack gets bigger).

- 4ft by 3ft for the size of what would break off is a conservative estimation imo. 

- "contact the Forest Service," bad idea, "and tell them about it so they can remove the flake or mark it to make people aware of the danger," worse idea.

- has it (the flex, the crack) gotten worse? hard to say. I didn't notice it ten years ago, but maybe it was because I was a new climber and didn't know what to look for. sad to say, but I think the flex has gotten worse over the years.

- spread the word (if you want) and leave it be (do not break the fang).

- do I climb the fang anymore? no.

- (if I had to answer) is the fang going to break in the next 50 years? no. but it might

Flex Seal that beotch. 30 cans oughta do it 

I'm back from Horse Flats. There's definitely new cracks and flexing that does warrant concerns for The Fang.

Here's a picture below that shows a possible new crack. I believe it was there when I first went there in 2015 but it may be bigger now.

This crack is for sure new. The crack starts a new line at a different angle. This tells me that the structure is compromised. I did pull on it a little from ground level and nothing. I eventually pulled on it hard from a "safe" distance and I felt it budged. You can also see the flake move just a bit. My partner is about 103 lbs and she was able to budge the flake from ground level.

Here's a picture of me back in 2015 and the crack in question doesn't exist at this time.

Originally, I wanted to remove the flake because the comments made it seem like the flake will fall from simply touching it. After checking it out, I don't believe anyone is immediate danger from pulling on it BUT the climb should be retired. It's no longer safe to climb it unfortunately. Someone already put "X's" on it and I think it should be sufficient for now.

Smart climbers don't pull on loose holds.  

It's a survival of the fittest thing.

"Safety" is for the weak.

Spider Savagewrote:

Smart climbers don't pull on loose holds.  

It's a survival of the fittest thing.

"Safety" is for the weak.

I should have clarified that I eased into pulling on it but you're right. A loose hold is a loose hold.

Just pry the piece of crap off... It's like a 7 foot boulder problem.  BFD.

Will C wrote:

I'm no longer in LA but I definitely noticed the crack getting larger and the flexing increased significantly over the last 3 years. I stopped climbing it because of this. If someone is eyeing up the low start, don't. Zack's Roof is harder, but a better problem anyway. Climb that instead.

Russ, yeah it's just a piddly little thing, but it was always quite fun to climb (when it was safe) and a local favorite for the grade. 

I get that.  But, if it is being deemed unsafe and should not be climbed, and therefore nobody is climbing it, what is the difference if it is gone altogether?  There is still nobody climbing it and some hapless noob that wanders by and decides to try it won't get flattened if it comes off.  Leaving it as something to just gaze upon makes no sense.  Remove it.

And contacting any "authority" is the worst thing anyone could do.  Just handle it.

If your local community wants to try and salvage that flake, you can get some SS all thread, a very long bit, and appropriate glue and anchor that beast back to the rock it is separating from.
For a flake that size 3-4 reinforcement points could do it. 

Prying it off / letting it fall and having a new line is a perfectly acceptable option as well. If it is a time bomb as it has been described, some sort of mitigation should be done ASAP.

Mike D wrote:

Ok tough guy. The girls aren't watching, you can chill out now.

Huh?  I guess you just don’t get it.

I was looking at the video for Root Canal V11 that's on same boulder as Fang and the spotter kept getting underneath the Fang to move pads and provide spotting. This situation most likely be similar to Zach's Roof. So it seems that it's inevitable that someone will be underneath the Fang, even when the Fang climb is recognized as unsafe. With that being said, I think I'm in favor of just removing the flaky bloc out. I'll wait until next summer to see what's the condition of it is like (if people climbed on it, did winter do a number on it, etc). At this point, I feel more comfortable removing it before it hurts someone.

What does the community think: remove the choss Fang or leave it as is?

I'm all for manipulating the environment as little as possible. But that flake is going to come off eventually, maybe on top of someone and maybe not. With the angle you pull to establish on it, I'd guess it will come down on someone. Could even take out a spotter or two along with the climber. Broken bones would be lucky. Paralysis or death are definitely on the table for the unlucky. I say pry it off.

So who gets dibs on the post break FAs?

Will C wrote:

Probably not feasible (or rather, not worth it). You'd need to drill through 3-5 feet of rock multiple times, and who wants that? Might even destroy the flake trying. The locals could take the initiative and break that sucker off. Probably the 'safest' option. I said I personally wouldn't because I'd rather just exercise personal caution/safety and let nature do her thing. The freeze-thaw cycle will probably git er done pretty quickly. A nice new line might come from it, that way.

This is a very feasible solution, will be permenant if done correctly, won't shatter the flake, and can be hidden fairly easily by someone that knows what they're doing. This kind of thing is done on sport climbs occasionally and would be a lot easier from the ground. It would take an hour or two and maybe $100 tops of equipment (assuming someone already owns a drill).

I Fwrote:

This is a very feasible solution, will be permenant if done correctly, won't shatter the flake, and can be hidden fairly easily by someone that knows what they're doing. This kind of thing is done on sport climbs occasionally and would be a lot easier from the ground. It would take an hour or two and maybe $100 tops of equipment (assuming someone already owns a drill).

This totally. For there's a huge flake reinforced in sinks. 15 feet high maybe? 

Whatever happens, i think we just gotta do it before that flake hurts someone, which I don’t think will be for a good bit. I would rather pop it off as I feel that’s the more natural answer (speeding up mother natures process rather than stopping it) but in the end it’s up to the community. Let’s just make sure people are safe.

I Fwrote:

This is a very feasible solution, will be permenant if done correctly, won't shatter the flake, and can be hidden fairly easily by someone that knows what they're doing. This kind of thing is done on sport climbs occasionally and would be a lot easier from the ground. It would take an hour or two and maybe $100 tops of equipment (assuming someone already owns a drill).

Dunno. I have some experience with pinning flakes, it's regularly done here, but that thing is massive and at least twice the size of the next biggest pin job I've seen.

I believe you that it's possible, but I'd feel better for someone with actual construction engineering rock bolting experience do a few equations and check how big and how many bits of reo might be needed. Rather than the local sport developer eyeballing it. At first I thought it might be hard finding drill bits that long, but I just checked and found metric 12mm SDS masonry bits in 210mm, 260mm, and 460mm lengths pretty easily - a bit more expensive, but within your proposed budget.

In conclusion, there are no easy options. Pour water in the crack on a cold evening to speed up geology?

Adan Wongchalermthanwrote:

I was looking at the video for Root Canal V11 that's on same boulder as Fang and the spotter kept getting underneath the Fang to move pads and provide spotting. This situation most likely be similar to Zach's Roof. So it seems that it's inevitable that someone will be underneath the Fang, even when the Fang climb is recognized as unsafe. With that being said, I think I'm in favor of just removing the flaky bloc out. I'll wait until next summer to see what's the condition of it is like (if people climbed on it, did winter do a number on it, etc). At this point, I feel more comfortable removing it before it hurts someone.

What does the community think: remove the choss Fang or leave it as is?

You think the fang is going to break randomly on someone’s head without being weighted? You are not the voice of reason in this conversation.

And nobody that climbs cares about your comfort level. 

Let the people decide if they want to risk their lives or not. I dare you to stand under the route any free soloist is climbing, protesting their confidence to climb something dangerous. I absolutely dare you. 

SoCal Chosswrote:

You think the fang is going to break randomly on someone’s head without being weighted? You are not the voice of reason in this conversation.

And nobody that climbs cares about your comfort level. 

Well, I think it's a possibility. I heard recently that a cliff side at Riverside Quarry fell. You mentioned you've climbed for at least 10 years, so I'm sure you've seen holds break off just by bumping into it. At least I've seen it happen at Jtree and Holcomb. 

I'm just stating what's my comfort level. If you feel offended by it, then I believe there's other issues that you should address first. I rather prevent injury rather than waiting, but I'm just one developer (I didn't even develop that climb/area). That is why I'm asking the community for input rather than taking an authoritarian decision. I have your vote as leave it be. I'll like to hear what other folks have to say.

Glue it or pry it off. Better than letting some first-time-outside climber pull it off on themselves.