Hydrogen Embrittlement of Rock Anchors

Tradibanwrote:

I don’t think “slim” is supporting my ideas per se, 

I didn't say he was supporting your ideas.  I said he was supporting you, your bullshit and bullshit in general.  

but I do think he supports thinking outside the box, as I do. Many great ideas start their existence dismissed.

Since removable bolts were suggested about 25 years ago, and many, many times since then, it's clear your thinking is solidly inside the box.  And since I don't believe there is a single RB-route in existance, it's not a great idea either.   If you think it's such a good idea, go put up an RB-route.  But you won't becauseTradiban is all blather and no substance.

The fellow above this post and his corrosion resistant device may be on to something, eh?

Yeah, it's called a Stainless or Titanium BOLT.

sweeeeeeet!

John Byrneswrote:

I didn't say he was supporting your ideas.  I said he was supporting you, your bullshit and bullshit in general.  

Here is where you say slim supports my ideas:

Since removable bolts were suggested about 25 years ago, and many, many times since then, it's clear your thinking is solidly inside the box.  And since I don't believe there is a single RB-route in existance, it's not a great idea either.   If you think it's such a good idea, go put up an RB-route.  But you won't becauseTradiban is all blather and no substance.

I have "set" many RBs. They work. It's worth exploring the possibility of using them for routes instead of just dismissing the idea.

Yeah, it's called a Stainless or Titanium BOLT.

Or it could be a sleeve that is installed flush with the rock and the RB is placed into it, like a key.

John Byrneswrote:

Slim, your attitude and actions are why MP is almost worthless as a source of credible information.  What do I mean?  I mean that bullshit, such as Tradiban's and many others, is allowed to stand but when someone corrects/contradicts the bullshit, you support the bullshitter as you did above.   If you think my eyes are bugging out and the veins in my neck are tweaking, then you're as full of it as Tradiban.  

The Fixed Hardware forum is the one forum where bullshit should never be allowed to stand unchallenged. Ever. Trolls should have their posts removed, and people like David Reeve should be rewarded and respected. Mr. Reeve has made an extremely important contribution to Metallurgy and to the sport of climbing. What contribution have YOU made, Slim?

And why don't you, Slim, climb an RB route with Tradiban belaying, since you support his ideas?  About 20' up I bet your eyes will bug out and your neck veins will tweak.   That is, if you have the courage to even try.   Which I'm sure you do not.

mother mary and joseph... i wasn't supporting tradiban, i was asking him nicely to not bully you, as i am worried you may have a stroke.  namaste!

Tradibanwrote:

Here is where you say slim supports my ideas:

I have "set" many RBs. They work. It's worth exploring the possibility of using them for routes instead of just dismissing the idea.

Or it could be a sleeve that is installed flush with the rock and the RB is placed into it, like a key.

They have been tried, one in Switzerland lasted three months before the originator went back and bolted it normally.

Another failed idea was an insert in the rock with a bayonet-fitting hanger thing. That got nowhere.

Yet another idea was to chisel T-shaped placements in the rock to take a Nr 4 nut, this is the Edwardes Eco-Nut. Some in Cornwall and some done in Spain. Completely worthless and all rebolted.

Of course there's the Australian Carrot bolts as well, another stupid idea!

Jim Tittwrote:

They have been tried, one in Switzerland lasted three months before the originator went back and bolted it normally.

Another failed idea was an insert in the rock with a bayonet-fitting hanger thing. That got nowhere.

Yet another idea was to chisel T-shaped placements in the rock to take a Nr 4 nut, this is the Edwardes Eco-Nut. Some in Cornwall and some done in Spain. Completely worthless and all rebolted.

Of course there's the Australian Carrot bolts as well, another stupid idea!

Excellent! Have any pics of these things? Perhaps we can build off their failures.

Tradibanwrote:

Excellent! Have any pics of these things? Perhaps we can build off their failures.

There's your problem. You should want to build off of successes.

Tradibanwrote:

Excellent! Have any pics of these things? Perhaps we can build off their failures.

I think most are consider this trolling but...

The concept of removable 'bolts' was done to 'death' at least 13 years ago when RB's first appeared on the market. Rowland Edwards and co trialled the Environmental Nut Protection 'ENP' system in Spain and caused a sh*t storm by 'establishing' new routes with pockets that required a #5 filed nut for every placement. It never worked and annoyed pretty much everyone who wondered why an expansion bolt was n't placed instead.

"One issue was that you couldn't see what was going on inside the hole so you really had no idea how good your nut placement was - you just had to trust that the mechanism inside had worked properly"

Kinda touches on the entire issue of home made anchors and what blow-jo climber has to assess vs something fixed and conforming to a specification.

RB's work well when placed in solid rock but I've had them rip out in soft rock due to their shallow embedment depth and this presents a real problem when using them on rock with a soft layer. Others have pointed out the difficulty with removing them and the cost of owning a set for leading a pitch.

Therefore consider the ethics of the area, select a suitable material and type of anchor, invest the longterm cost and be done with it.

slimwrote:

mother mary and joseph... i wasn't supporting tradiban, i was asking him nicely to not bully you, as i am worried you may have a stroke.  namaste!

Bullshit.

Francis Hadenwrote:

I think most are consider this trolling but...

The concept of removable 'bolts' was done to 'death' at least 13 years ago when RB's first appeared on the market. Rowland Edwards and co trialled the Environmental Nut Protection 'ENP' system in Spain and caused a sh*t storm by 'establishing' new routes with pockets that required a #5 filed nut for every placement. It never worked and annoyed pretty much everyone who wondered why an expansion bolt was n't placed instead.

"One issue was that you couldn't see what was going on inside the hole so you really had no idea how good your nut placement was - you just had to trust that the mechanism inside had worked properly"

Kinda touches on the entire issue of home made anchors and what blow-jo climber has to assess vs something fixed and conforming to a specification.

RB's work well when placed in solid rock but I've had them rip out in soft rock due to their shallow embedment depth and this presents a real problem when using them on rock with a soft layer. Others have pointed out the difficulty with removing them and the cost of owning a set for leading a pitch.

Therefore consider the ethics of the area, select a suitable material and type of anchor, invest the longterm cost and be done with it.

Yes, I think RBs need a redesign in order to become useful to do an entire route. I was thinking instead of a wedge mechanism, it would be a key lock, a sleeve is installed previous and  pulling the trigger would retract “wings” that fit into slots in the sleeve. 

What material would the sleeve be made of?  You need to pick something that doesn't corrode.

How bout a jig for perfect V threads?

rocknice2wrote:

What material would the sleeve be made of?  You need to pick something that doesn't corrode.

Whatever the noncorrosive metal du jour is.

So why not just make bolts out of that material. Problem solved!

rocknice2wrote:

So why not just make bolts out of that material. Problem solved!

No, this would be like an inverted bolt.

You're exhausting! I understand what you proposed but you still seem to be missing the simple fact that whatever metal you fix into the rock may corrode in certain environments. 

So go out, find a material that works in corrosive environments and report back. When you do, you'll have laurels bestowed upon you.

It won't make your idea any better but it will improve the longevity of the bolts being use at sea side cliffs.

rocknice2wrote:

You're exhausting! I understand what you proposed but you still seem to be missing the simple fact that whatever metal you fix into the rock may corrode in certain environments. 

So go out, find a material that works in corrosive environments and report back. When you do, you'll have laurels bestowed upon you.

It won't make your idea any better but it will improve the longevity of the bolts being use at sea side cliffs.

Right, there’s not a metal that will work forever in “corrosive” environments, so whatever is best will be used.

But that’s besides the point, the “inverted bolt” needs to be designed first.

I stumbled upon something while doing something else. I had a need to make a lightweight garden cart (but didn't want to pay for off the shelf) using repurposed items, so while I was browsing the local thrift store for a source of affordable wheels, I found a modern wheelchair for $15. The wheel size was just right and it uses airless tires. After I got it home and was getting ready to remove the wheels, I realized I didn't need a wrench to do so, simply push the button in the center of the axle and the whole hub/wheel/axle removes from the chair frame. I ended up using this axle design to make the cart quick and easy to disassemble which can be tucked away in the trunk of a small sedan. I used 1/2" ID steel tubing cut to length then welded that to the frame. Now the existing axle design doesn't escape the need for a sleeve, as seen in the photo below.

Anyways, the axle assembly itself, for what it is used for, is pretty strong. Now coming back to this forum, I have to ask myself, how could this be applied to a RB? It would need some modification to satisfy the pull out requirement and would need to not need a sleeve (just the drill hole), but shear would appear to be not too far off. Just getting this info out there, here is a snippet of these typical easy to remove axles:

Daniel, Those are called "quick release pins" or "quick release ball lock pins". I use them frequently when fabricating trailers and off-road accessories, swing gates/ramps. etc. They are not designed to withstand significant axial/pullout forces. The ball is only there to prevent the pin from falling or vibrating out of the hole. That cart axle design is probably fine for going slowly in a straight line. The same use on a go-cart with lateral forces on the wheels would be a disaster.

Perhaps you are thinking of something like the Petzl "Coeur Pulse".

https://www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Anchors/COEUR-PULSE

ClimbBajawrote:

Daniel, Those are called "quick release pins" or "quick release ball lock pins". I use them frequently when fabricating trailers and off-road accessories, swing gates/ramps. etc. They are not designed to withstand significant axial/pullout forces. The ball is only there to prevent the pin from falling or vibrating out of the hole. That cart axle design is probably fine for going slowly in a straight line. The same use on a go-cart with lateral forces on the wheels would be a disaster.

Perhaps you are thinking of something like the Petzl "Coeur Pulse".

https://www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Anchors/COEUR-PULSE

The cart application turned out better than anticipated, turning is fine even with two 80lb bags of quickcrete. The wheelchair axles have been impressive, as long as the balls are engaged past the sleeve they stay put, but if not they'll pull out easily just as you stated.

Thank you for the link!