Snake dike anchor conditions

H Luewrote:

She was 6 ft above the anchors. The last bolt was 35-40 ft below her.. 

If there was another bolt between the last and the anchors it certainly would have helped the severity of the fall. 

Specious. We can play what if all day long. What if there was another bolt and what if it caused the rope to be such that what if she flipped over and if what she hit her head and what if she was fatally injured?

Allen Sandersonwrote:

Specious. We can play what if all day long. What if there was another bolt and what if it caused the rope to be such that what if she flipped over and if what she hit her head and what if she was fatally injured?

You’re all ridiculous. If you don’t want more bolts because of ego and tradition just say so, that’s a fine stance to take. 

Would you agree that in general 20 ft spacing between bolts is safer than 40 ft spacing between bolts? 

H Luewrote:

You’re all ridiculous. If you don’t want more bolts because of ego and tradition just say so, that’s a fine stance to take. 

Would you agree that in general 20 ft spacing between bolts is safer than 40 ft spacing between bolts? 

Sounds like you’re not a climber. Or worse, you’re one of those people that thinks they’re a climber. Would you agree that not rock climbing would be safer?

Very cool developments! I always knew I was super brave for climbing closely bolted routes.

Tom Shermanwrote:

Sounds like you’re not a climber. Or worse, you’re one of those people that thinks they’re a climber. Would you agree that not rock climbing would be safer?

I’m not going to have a dick measuring contest with you, Tommy.

H Luewrote:

You’re all ridiculous. If you don’t want more bolts because of ego and tradition just say so, that’s a fine stance to take. 

Would you agree that in general 20 ft spacing between bolts is safer than 40 ft spacing between bolts? 

Once again, please read all 11 pages of the other thread: https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/122718181/yosemite-helo-rescue-710-half-dome

There's a lot of thoughtful and respectful discussion there (yes, surprising, I know) and there's no need to rehash the same arguments here.

Greg, the difference I see in climbing with your example of seatbelts/airbags is, in a car ithe risk of accident and injury is a factor of speed vs climbing it is a factor of distance fallen.  In a car if I sow down eventually I will go slow enough where no damage will occur in the event of a mistake.

So I feel like it’s a good argument for “1 more bolt” as it would half the potential fall distance and halving the chance of injury in the case of a fall. 

In the same vein I think it’s a good argument against piece-of-mind bolts. 

Albert Bwrote:

Greg, the difference I see in climbing with your example of seatbelts/airbags is, in a car ithe risk of accident and injury is a factor of speed vs climbing it is a factor of distance fallen.  In a car if I sow down eventually I will go slow enough where no damage will occur in the event of a mistake.

So I feel like it’s a good argument for “1 more bolt” as it would half the potential fall distance and halving the chance of injury in the case of a fall. 

In the same vein I think it’s a good argument against piece-of-mind bolts. 

Once again, please read all 11 pages of the other thread: https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/122718181/yosemite-helo-rescue-710-half-dome

There's a lot of thoughtful and respectful discussion there (yes, surprising, I know) and there's no need to rehash the same arguments here.

H Luewrote:

I’m not going to have a dick measuring contest with you, Tommy.

That’s the problem. You think it’s a dick measuring complex. You think that if only the bolts were closer you and everyone for that matter could clippitty clip.

If you were in my friend group you’d know I’d come up the shortest dick measuring.

But, REAL climbing is not just an offshoot of weightlifting. It’s not just about do you have the strength to do it. It’s about mental stamina, fortitude, risk, reward, putting yourself out there, and growing as a person.

We think climbing, the pursuit in its entirety, is as much mental as it is physical, and that’s what we love about climbing. And we don’t want you to eradicate real climbing because you managed to jerk yourself off in a gym long enough to climb 10c. Without risk, climbing would be no different than swimming. There’s plenty of objectives out there that meet the criteria to go do pull-ups on without getting on the sharp end and climbing.

Tom Shermanwrote:

That’s the problem. You think it’s a dick measuring complex. You think that if only the bolts were closer you and everyone for that matter could clippitty clip.

If you were in my friend group you’d know I’d come up the shortest dick measuring.

But, REAL climbing is not just an offshoot of weightlifting. It’s not just about do you have the strength to do it. It’s about mental stamina, fortitude, risk, reward, putting yourself out there, and growing as a person.

We think climbing, the pursuit in its entirety, is as much mental as it is physical, and that’s what we love about climbing. And we don’t want you to eradicate real climbing because you managed to jerk yourself off in a gym long enough to climb 10c. Without risk, climbing would be no different than swimming. There’s plenty of objectives out there that meet the criteria to go do pull-ups on without getting on the sharp end and climbing.

They dick measuring contest comes in your accusation that you’re more of a climber than me. If it makes you feel better to try to put others down on mountain project, do your thing. All right, it’s a Sunday.. I’ll be at Index not being a rock climber if you want to chat some more.

Rather then retro bolting SD someone should go up there and put up a bunch of single pitch sport climbs. Since the MP community has declared it's not allowed to do multi pitch climbs above a sport climbing area. No one ever climbs SD again because people are hammocking between burns on the sport routes at the base, problem solved. 

Marc801 Cwrote:

And those additional bolts were added by Roper on the second ascent.

Please read the other thread, referenced immediately after your post, in its entirety.

It's a great thread! Almost one of the more productive bolt vs no bolt debates we've had on MP!

And tradi has mostly stayed off of it! (Edit, which is why it's probably been one of the more productive ones)

David Engelwrote:

On August 1, 2022, Anna Parsons a visiting climber from New Zealand took a huge fall on Pitch 3.  She lived, but broke nearly every bone in her body.  Her foot was amputated.  YOSAR rescued her.  Her medical bills have already topped $1.4 million.  

I last did Snake Dike in 2018 (and many times previous) and I thought some of the bolts were not in good condition.  I read here that some have been replaced.  However for years, I have argued that additional bolts need to be placed on the route.  People respond with stories about how easy the route is and the traditions with the route.  That being said, even the first ascent team said that it needed more bolts.  At the time, I offered to put in 1/2" stainless bolts in and was pretty much told off.  

It's time to add more bolts to Snake Dike to prevent future tragedies.  I hope all those people who argue against additional bolts on the route are helping Ms. Parsons with her medical bills.

“Tragedies” happen on sport climbs too, should we double up on the bolts? She made a mistake in the worst possible place, that’s all.

BTW, someone please tell her not to use that money for medical bills, that would be a total waste, better used for adapting her home and life for disability.

H Luewrote:

She was 6 ft above the anchors. The last bolt was 35-40 ft below her.. 

If there was another bolt between the last and the anchors it certainly would have helped the severity of the fall. 

I agree with you.  Although,  there is a problem with how that pitch is done.  The third pitch, usually considered the crux, starts off as a climb up and left to the only bolt on the pitch. The route then traverses climbers left to the dike.  Once on the dike, the climber ascends many feet to the first set of belay bolts.  Clipping lower bolts,  especially when first reaching the dike would result in rope drag that would be dangerous later along the pitch on the dike.  

The answer should be an additional set of bolted belay anchors where the dike is reached. 

David Engelwrote:

I agree with you.  Although,  there is a problem with how that pitch is done.  The third pitch, usually considered the crux, starts off as a climb up and left to the only bolt on the pitch. The route then traverses climbers left to the dike.  Once on the dike, the climber ascends many feet to the first set of belay bolts.

The crux is immediately after that bolt. Remind us of the difficulty getting to and up the dike *after* that bit of 5.7 friction.

If there was another bolt between the last and the anchors it certainly would have helped the severity of the fall. 

Would it? I haven't even seen an accurate explanation of where she fell. Everything in the original report made it sound like it was the top of pitch 2, that she continued past the anchors onto snake dance. But this thread says it was pitch 3 after the traverse onto Snake Dike proper. Either way I haven't read how far down was the ledge she hit? I think that's where she sustained the majority of her injuries. Then she fell further. Another bolt may or may not have prevented her from hitting that ledge. That's an issue I was getting at on the other thread. If there is an area of the climb that is out of character with the rest of the climb and multiple people have fallen and got hurt at that one point then you could have a reasonable discussion about whether that particular spot could use one more bolt. Without that it's conjecture. Where could people fall? Anywhere. How long is too long of a run out? IMO you either leave the climb as it's been done by thousands of people for decades or you have a proposal that makes sense, it's not helpful to just say it needs more bolts or it's too run out. It's an R rated climb. It's designated as being run out 

People respond with stories about how easy the route is and the traditions with the route. 

The route is NOT easy. Physically it's a moderate climb. Mentally it's VERY HARD for many of the people who climb it. That's part of the appeal of it. Route (and bolt) finding, lead head, slab climbing, down climbing, and self rescue skills should all be at a sufficient level to climb snake dike. Too many people see 5.7 and think it's easy. 

If you don’t want more bolts because of ego and tradition just say so, that’s a fine stance to take. 

Ego and tradition play into it, but mental challenge was not included. Many people who want to add bolts leave that out. Adding bolts changes the mental challenge of the climb for all future climbers, that's the main reason we don't add bolts IMO.

Would you agree that in general 20 ft spacing between bolts is safer than 40 ft spacing between bolts? 

If there's a ledge 19 feet below it doesn't matter if it's 20' or 40'. If the bolts are 20' apart the route will attract less skilled people. In general 20 ft spacing will mean falls may be shorter, but doesn't necessarily mean the route would be safer.

David Engelwrote:

I agree with you.  Although,  there is a problem with how that pitch is done.  The third pitch, usually considered the crux, starts off as a climb up and left to the only bolt on the pitch. The route then traverses climbers left to the dike.  Once on the dike, the climber ascends many feet to the first set of belay bolts.  Clipping lower bolts,  especially when first reaching the dike would result in rope drag that would be dangerous later along the pitch on the dike.  

The answer should be an additional set of bolted belay anchors where the dike is reached. 

That's not the pitch the accident happened on. It happened on pitch 2.

Regardless, your description of the pitch 3 is a bit off. There are 2 bolts that are always both clipped with almost no drag. And there already is a bolted belay once you reach the dike, but it exposes the 2nd to a bad fall at the crux so it is almost never used and instead just skipped entirely.

If this climb were Canda there'd be a whole bunch of bolts. But then again, that's Canada They ain't giving out free health insurance and allowing 60 ft runouts. They'd make it real cozy and say don't clip the bolts if you want a mental challenge.

AndrewBwrote:

If this climb were Canda there'd be a whole bunch of bolts. But then again, that's Canada They ain't giving out free health insurance and allowing 60 ft runouts. They'd make it real cozy and say don't clip the bolts if you want a mental challenge.

Yep, depends entirely on the country/area. In many of my local crags sub 5.8 routes are bolted pretty superficially, as that's tradition.

Earlier in the thread someone mentioned that adding new bolts were proposed by one of the first ascentionists. Some people probably misunderstood it as an old reference, but I came across this post a couple of days ago.