Yosemite Helo Rescue 7/10 - Half Dome ?

Brad Youngwrote:

And who exactly gets to decide what is "over bolted" or "safely bolted?" You? Someone who wants a bolt every three feet? Lowest common denominator?

If it is you that makes that decision, tell me why it's you and not me, or someone else. Your safely bolted ruins the experience for others who want to experience history, a challenge, some level of danger/adventure.

The result speaks for itself. When someone falls off and breaks every bone in her body, then it's not safe. All of you who want danger and adventure still haven't answered why you simply can't just not clip the bolts. It ruins your experience? vs. someone in a hospital bed with a $1 million dollar medical bill? Someone was calling me selfish...

aikibujinwrote:

The result speaks for itself. When someone falls off and breaks every bone in her body, then it's not safe. All of you who want danger and adventure still haven't answered why you simply can't just not clip the bolts. It ruins your experience? vs. someone in a hospital bed with a $1 million dollar medical bill? Someone was calling me selfish...

It is selfish and irresponsible towards the rock and future climbers. People 200 years from now will have to look at thousands of bolt patches if we go by your standards. It doesn't seem to account for people that have yet to be born. Idk how it is on the west coast; but east coast weather can eat through bolts pretty quickly.

Also, I think the way we do things is dramatically safer than how they do things in eastern Europe. The whole no bolts or cams thing is pretty sketchy IMO

Edit: It is also not our fault that america/new zealand has a broken medical system. This girl has the ability to get affordable help, but new zealand wont pay for American intervention(or some type of vice versa); which is just dumb. Climbing is a selfish endeavor btw. We all know we are taking risks by choosing to engage in this activity. 

aikibujinwrote:

Safe bolting does not equal over bolting. A route should be safely bolted to prevent death and serious injury, that's not over bolting.

I'm a fat person that's selfishly asking for a well-maintained solid trail that goes to the bottom of Grand Canyon, instead of a loose and eroded slip-and-slide that if you fall you break every single bone in your body.

If there was a scarcity of routes, then you might have a point. But when there’s thousands of routes in an area, one’s selfishness about wanting to climb a specific route is not an argument for dumbing down a route to a lower level of commitment. 

And for what it's worth in this particular instance, one's weight is not really that relevant when it comes to one's proficiency at, or ability with, slab technique. 

Harsh reality is that gumbies with 1 year climbing experience shouldn't be leading Snake Dike type routes for this exact reason. Yes you may be able to do all the technical moves, but you don't have any route finding experience or sense that you may be off route. Further, you don't have the skills to undo mistakes. 

When I do a long route I spend a LOT of time intensely studying topos, details, and beta. A route like Snake Dike probably has infinity detail about every move/belay/situation. Her getting into this situation on a mega-popular trade route has strong implications that homework was not done. 

Like Kevin Deweese said above: NOT EVERY ROUTE NEEDS TO BE CLIMBED BY EVERY CLIMBER. 

Todd Berlier wrote:

Are we--the don't add bolts crowd on established routes--the trad climbers of the 80s saying rap bolting is evil? What I keep coming back to in my brain is: I do think the add bolts crowd will outnumber the don't add them crowd. All its going to take it someone saying hey National Parks peeps what would you rather do have someone come in with a cordless drill and add a bunch of bolts or keep spending millions of $s per year rescuing people? Eventually the old climbers will fade away and money will rule, is it better to get ahead of it and do it now or maintain the status quo as long as possible and then see what happens? Will this become an access issue: hey climbers relent or we are closing the entire park to climbing.

This.  I have said this in other threads as well regarding the bolting debate and in an earlier post made reference to the jtree climbing management plan.

Older climbers who have held on to the ethics have two choices: 1) Do nothing or 2) Help direct the future of climbing ethics on public lands for reasons you articulated in this post.

Snake dike is honestly a shitty climb. The run outs add character and flavor to an otherwise boring route.

Adding extra bolts would give people the opportunity and the sense of security to clip them and "take the easy way out". Most people (myself included) will take this way out when it's presented to them. Not having the extra bolts forces us to "rise to the occasion" and create a more meaningful climbing experience/memory. 

You can say my mental game is weak for not just "refusing to clip the extra bolts". You are absolutely right. My mental game is weak. I am only human. Climbs like snake dike allow us to test our boundaries in an environment that requires commitment.
 Regardless, this accident is an absolute tragedy and I hope for a speedy and full recovery for the victim

I rope soloed that route on my 34th b-day (38 years ago - you can do the math).  I was reasonably competent - car to car in 12 hours.  Before this gets dismissed as the same old boasting and bragging by some old has-been/never-was - let me continue.  I knew then that this was a very ordinary experience - nothing special - not in the same league as those that were romping up it in a few hours or RA in an hour.  Yet it was at the time and remains one of my most memorable climbing experiences.  I wouldn't have that memory if the route had been just another multi pitch clip up.  Don't even mention the concept of "just don't clip them".

This discussion seems like just another subset/variation on the increasingly popular idea of "community" route development.  Development so no one needs to raise their game, get more experience, everyone can get on it from the get go.  Objections get shot down by playing the DEI card.  Us old entitled white males have no right.... etc. and so on.

This is a horrible tragedy for this woman.  Her life will be completely different.  It's awful.  Possibly it could have been prevented.  But I bet that part of the challenge for her was was trying it in the state it was in (regarding gear).  I don't remember an outcry to add a bolt after Quinn's accident - why not?

All climbing at all levels is about ego.  Trying to play that card as a justification is silly.  Not everyone has to climb every route.  Not everyone has to climb any route.  People choose to for the challenge - which can take many forms.  

Climbing accidents have and will continue to happen.  Few are accidents in the sense that the victims had no idea it could happen.  Compare that to the victims of gun violence.  Children don't go to school each day thinking that they are risking death.  That's something we should be wringing our hands about.

Lol - Snake Dike is the new Double Cross.

Eric Engbergwrote:

 I don't remember an outcry to add a bolt after Quinn's accident - why not?

Because Quinn skipped placing protection. But, of course, you knew that.

Gumby Kingwrote:

Fuck
Please read the climbing.com article and look at her picture before commenting.

Yes, before you go making any reasonable conclusions about this accident and before you apply in logic, please look at her pics, so emotion can take over and we can have more rants about bolt spacing and the cursing of deadmen's egos from the 70s. Kind of wild that in what appears to be an incident of two climbers probably being on the wrong climb that day, due to an array of factors, we would prefer to curse the egos of prior climbers and bolt spacing on a climb nobody had to do that day. Probably more of an indictment on the culture of non accountability we have cultivated over the last decade or so in this country vs the climbing community as a whole, so I digress some. But this continued push to make everything safe and attainable for the lowest common denominators among us, is a bit of  disheartening path we are taking as a society. 

amariuswrote:

Drop some coins here - https://givealittle.co.nz/cause/annas-road-to-recovery

If you share an opinion, remember to share some support for Anna as well. She is $1mil in the hole already.

Would it be appropriate for the MP info or the guidebooks to have slightly stronger verbage about the runouts and consequences?

From what I've read, the accidents on Snake Dike were people who were predominantly in over their heads. They saw the 5.7 grade, and did not understand the consequences of the R. I've climbed SD twice now, and think that more beta won't make the route any safer. It might even make it less safe. Take the Grack on the Glacier Point Apron. There's SO much beta there. Where to build the anchors, what pieces you need, everything. It's set up so that any gumby can throw themselves at it and see what happens. Snake Dike is not the same. The grade doesn't reflect the full scope of risk and injury that can occur. Gumbies should NOT consider it to be an accessible, safe, or low-consequence route. 

More beta on the route won't help. More bolts might (I won't weigh in on that), but they'll definitely get chopped. Is there a way to try to increase awareness of what the route actually entails in a more "in your face" kind of way? Anyone who researches the route will find it out, but I don't think we can rely on gumbies to research the route as much as they should.

You know what would prove your point(s)? - dropping a few coins here - https://givealittle.co.nz/cause/annas-road-to-recovery 

amariuswrote:

You know what would prove your point(s)? - dropping a few coins here - https://givealittle.co.nz/cause/annas-road-to-recovery 

I think you're right. We should support her!

I’d wager if the FAs on many of these routes had access to modern drills & batteries, there would be allot more bolts installed.  They were making as safe as they could, days and weeks hand drilling bolts.   Today we’ve perverted their aspect for safety into danger.  

Pete Swrote:

I’d wager if the FAs on many of these routes had access to modern drills & batteries, there would be allot more bolts installed.  They were making as safe as they could, days and weeks hand drilling bolts.   Today we’ve perverted their aspect for safety into danger.  

I would hope they'd also have access to the fines and confiscation of their bolting gear that comes from using powered drills against the regulations for wilderness. 

@kevin, that’s a rather short sited view.  Run out bolting ethic extends well past a few national parks.   Many routes would benefit from adding select bolts or even proper anchors.  

Retrobolt the Snake Dike and rename it Disneyland?

No. The Snake Dike is ever-protected by hammer and chisel, mark my words. 

aikibujinwrote:

The result speaks for itself. When someone falls off and breaks every bone in her body, then it's not safe. All of you who want danger and adventure still haven't answered why you simply can't just not clip the bolts. It ruins your experience? vs. someone in a hospital bed with a $1 million dollar medical bill? Someone was calling me selfish...

So you want to alter the route for all future climbers because of this one incident? Out of the thousands who have climbed the route safely?

i used to think it would be a good idea to put in a bolt or two on classic runout climbs, until i climbed a little bit more. i followed my friend john (RIP) up the hobbit book in tuolumne, i believe it is a 5.7 R just like snake dike, also a classic, although not nearly as trafficked as snake dike. the climbing was easy for him (he did it in his construction work boots), and it was easy for me to follow, but i knew during the money pitch that i would not be able to lead the route myself yet. i followed a well known climber on fairview's regular route, which is a 5.9 classic, and i didn't really think much about whether i could do it or not. it was really well protected, although in some spots the route finding was not blatantly obvious to me and i could see myself getting in trouble there if the first time i went up there i attempted it on lead. we then did great pumpkin which is a 5.8 but much scarier. there are small hollow flakes that you need to grab and step on, and a huge runout on tuolumne nobs on a very long last pitch. i was scared even following it, wondering if the flakes would pull and cut the rope, and if i slipped off the crux move, the rope stretch would be enough to sprain or break an ankle on the ledge below.

the point of all of this is that it took me a long time to realize what the grades actually mean, to evaluate them in a non-gym context, and determine whether or not i could do them. i can easily see myself making the exact same mistakes as the woman who took the unfortunate fall. having climbed a well-protected historical 5.7 in the valley that felt quite a bit below my limit, i also wanted to climb snake dike because "i can definitely do it, i love slab, i have climbed on this granite" but following the three routes above gave me a much better understanding of what the grades mean and what i am and i am not ready for. how much more i need to know and how much more comfortable i need to be to give me the margin of error needed to make mistakes on snake dike that i can comfortably undo without panicking and taking a dangerous fall. i also realized how much it has sobered me up to take some bad falls myself and see others get hurt climbing to better internalize the consequences. it's a process, and i remember myself a few years ago not having this type of knowledge but feeling confident enough to do the 5.7 R. that almost mistake was on me, not the route.

i feel for her, it's a life altering mistake that she can't ever have back now, but i've come to realize that i stand with the traditionalists here. it is almost beyond what the FA party wishes, the varying opinions of the community, it is simply part of the infinite progression of climbing which is a life long activity that is very difficult to master. the road to mastery is long and there are no shortcuts. it's possible that the grading system could be more clear as to the dangers but in the end it just takes time to really understand whether what you're about to do is what you think you're about to do. mentorship can help here but there is no shortcuts to slow and steady growth. this route takes a long time to be ready for, and that's okay.

for those who are arguing for added bolts, do you think that the woman, given healing time and self reflection time, would say 1) she wished there had been bolts there, or 2) wished that she had known she wasn't ready for it, or 3) she was completely ready, knew what she was doing, and fell off anyway as it happens to even the best of the best? my guess is 2, then 3, then 1.

i hear that not every climb needs to be climbed by every climber, but you can always follow climbs that you yourself can't lead. find a partner, explain your experience that you've led a bunch of well-protected stuff in yosemite but aren't ready yet to lead something like snake dike, but that you really want see the route it and have a better understanding of what it entails. it's likely you'd find someone to take you up it and show you around.