The latest, greatest 2:1 hauling kit

Brian Rwrote:

The same way Kevin suggests, using a quickdraw.  Counterweight hauling is definitely the best example of a reason why you’d want to back it up.  I’d just assume always be in the habit of adding that quick extra step, just in case (say your partner gets to the belay and starts helping you haul by hanging on the free end of the haul line…back up is already in place).  Also this extra step of backing up the main pulley/progress capture device became part of my haul set up protocol during the time that the hauling device of choice was the Petzl Wall Hauler.  I don’t think anyone would have recommended using one of those for the things a Micro Trax regularly is like top rope soloing, simul climbing, and belaying from above.  It certainly wasn’t as robust as a Pro Trax or Micro Trax.  

Right-  Now we’re all saying the same thing- but your original comment about backing up the pulley in a 2:1 system didn’t mention anything about “while a 2nd is counterweight’ing”  - I added that.. as it’s the only scenario where I can imagine a quick and easy back-up for a 2:1

My point was unless you add an additional Progress Capture device - you aren’t backing anything up by adding a QuickDraw to a normal 2:1 system, and in my experience, we rarely counterweight because we are using a 2:1 and it’s not necessary.. (exceptions: day 1, and 3 man teams which have more weight and a person with nothing to do but jug and counterweight)

  *also anyone counterweight’ing a bag should be tied in short via whatever line they were originally Jugging… just sayin 

Back in the WallHauler days we generally backed it up with a QuickDraw but if it had failed it wouldn’t be pretty- as the only thing blocking the weight would be the Jumar you were connected to the free end with..  and then you.. have fun unweighting that mess ;) 

Quinn Hatfieldwrote:

My point was unless you add an additional Progress Capture device - you aren’t backing anything up by adding a QuickDraw to a normal 2:1 system

I have also thought about this. It’s not something that spooks me too much. I certainly don’t haul with a backup all the time, but I do wonder how to effectively and efficiently backup the normal 2:1 system. If I knew I might back up all the time. 

Alex Fletcherwrote:

I have also thought about this. It’s not something that spooks me too much. I certainly don’t haul with a backup all the time, but I do wonder how to effectively and efficiently backup the normal 2:1 system. If I knew I might back up all the time. 

I think the answer is-

The Zed backs up the Pulley, and 

The pulley backs up the Zed 

Quinn Hatfieldwrote:

I think the answer is-

The Zed backs up the Pulley, and 

The pulley backs up the Zed 

Hmmm. I suppose so, but it’s an iffy backup at best. I would need to do more than just have a leg loop in the zed cord. I often just foot pump the 2:1

Quinn Hatfieldwrote:

I think the answer is-

The Zed backs up the Pulley, and 

The pulley backs up the Zed 

Naw, I don’t like that answer.

If the wire dog bone or the Micro-trax were to fail the weight would fall onto the Basic and the Zed Cord.

I’m not a “if this happens then that might happen” kind of guy and if it’s just the haul bag, I don’t worry about it a bit, but I’d hate for a climber AND a haul bag to fall onto the Zed Cord.

A shoulder length sling clipped to a bolt and the haul line below the Micro-Trax will do the trick. 

Mark Hudonwrote:

Naw, I don’t like that answer.

If the wire dog bone or the Micro-trax were to fail the weight would fall onto the Basic and the Zed Cord.

I’m not a “if this happens then that might happen” kind of guy and if it’s just the haul bag, I don’t worry about it a bit, but I’d hate for a climber AND a haul bag to fall onto the Zed Cord.

A shoulder length sling clipped to a bolt and the haul line below the Micro-Trax will do the trick. 

Mark- 

Yes, we covered that above- backing up a counterweight haul makes good sense.. I always do it.. 

The question was- does the microtrax in a standard 2:1 with no climber-counterweight need to be backed up- and that’s what I was referring to.. 

Quinn Hatfieldwrote:

Mark- 

Yes, we covered that above- backing up a counterweight haul makes good sense.. I always do it.. 

The question was- does the microtrax in a standard 2:1 with no climber-counterweight need to be backed up- and that’s what I was referring to.. 

sorry, I haven’t been reading the posts.

Kevin,

In a space hauling situation where the dogbone or Micro broke, a quick draw the climber would counter weight the bags and a quick draw would save the day.
In a non space haul situation (I agree, it’ll never happen), back up draw or not, the bag would fall onto the Basic (and you’d shit your pants). 

Hey! I’m old and infirm and losing my mind! Gimme a freakin’ break! Just pretend to listen to me, be nice and then carry on! 

Just a few pages ago, there was video evidence posted of a wire dogbone breaking. I’m sure it was “never gonna happen” to that too but it did.

And just a moment ago we said the micro breaking and the bag weight falling onto the petzl basic / zed cord would be bad.

Then we said it was ok??

So...anyone got better ideas for backing up a 2:1 non space haul for when my Micro Traxion decides to explode even if it’s “never gonna happen?”

Please?

No one is attacking anyone. We’re all just here to learn and bounce ideas off one another. 

Alex Fletcherwrote:

So...anyone got better ideas for backing up a 2:1 non space haul for when my Micro Traxion decides to explode even if it’s “never gonna happen?”

Will a Micro Traxion tend a Prusik?

So...anyone got better ideas for backing up a 2:1 non space haul for when my Micro Traxion decides to explode even if it’s “never gonna happen?”

Please?

The Micro Traxion and the wire draw are only holding the static load (weight of the bag) on a 2:1 non space haul never more.  This is well under the rating (unless you are getting super crazy with big wall camping).  If you are concerned about a wire draw failure, then remove it from the system and use a quickdraw, static cord, dynemea sling or whatever you want instead.  Any force applied in actually pulling up the load (like when it is stuck under a roof) is through the 2:1 below the micro/wire draw.  During the actual hauling process the 2:1 haul system is actually what is holding the weight most of the time with progress capture briefly holding the weight while you reset for 2 seconds.  So the 2:1 system during hauling is backing up the micro/wire draw.  Now if you unclip yourself from the 2:1 haul in the middle of the process and start doing something else, then the 2:1 system is NOT backing up the micro/wire draw.  So the easiest way to back up the micro/wire draw would be to always keep tension on the 2:1 haul system with your bodyweight until the bags are at the anchor and docked.

There are additional ways to backup the system but they are either complex, add a lot of extra time, or potentially dangerous.  For instance you could tie the back end of the haul line off to the anchor but if everything else failed then you are going to shock load your entire anchor once the bag falls to the end of the static rope (I would never do this or recommend it).  Or you could add a 2nd device like a Petzl Shunt to the load side of the micro traxion but then you would need to tend 2 devices.  

I think we need to look at the probability of the event vs. the downsides of adding complexity to the system.  There have been isolated instances where sport climbers fell and broke quickdraws, does this mean we need to clip 2 draws to every bolt?  I personally don't think so.  There have been multiple reported cases where someone leans back and slowly loads a grigri but it doesn't actually catch them and the rope feeds through the grigri allowing them to fall.  Does this mean I don't use a single grigri to TR solo or aid solo?  For me yes because it doesn't add much complexity to the system to switch to a different device that doesn't have the same issues.

My own take is that the scenario where the wire draw or micro break is an extremely unlikely event.  And in that extremely unlikely event the 2:1 will hold the load because I am hauling with it.  Adding anything more to the system to "back it up" is going to add too much more complexity or time than I am willing to deal with.

Kevin wins this round. I'm really not seeing a problem here.

If the microtrax goes supernova (from holding about 150 lbs statically), then the bag comes onto the Z cord, which is cloved to a locker on my belay loop. Next I would have to unscrew the locker and huck the bag down the wall. However the other end of the haul line is clipped onto our anchor (so as not to be forgot on the next pitch), and when the line comes tight, our anchor rips and we die as immortal legends of the wall.

Kevin DeWeese wrote:

Bigwall will always be the land of system minutea wankery 

Thanks for responding Marlin and Kevin! The key difference I’ve seen in my setup from what y’all describe is that the end of the zed cord should be closed such that it can’t slip through the Omniblock pulley at the top of the system. I’ve usually tied an overhand at the height of my foot to do leg pump hauling. This small knot would quite possibly be small enough to slip through the top and bottom pulleys of my 2:1 kit if I had my leg out. 

In the future, I’ll clove hitch the zed cord either to my belay loop or at least to a ladder making the carabiner be the object to stop zed cord from unraveling through the system.

Alex Fletcherwrote:

In the future, I’ll clove hitch the zed cord either to my belay loop or at least to a ladder making the carabiner be the object to stop zed cord from unraveling through the system.

I clove the end of the zed cord to a super lightweight rappel ring.  This puts a small dedicated piece of equipment on the end and makes it very easy to adjust the length when I am initially setting up the haul system for the pitch.  It also gives me an easy point to clip into.

Ryan Never climbs wrote:

that’s how you send a6

P.S. An excellent point about closing the system, Alex. I'm curious -- about how heavy of a load are you foot pumping with your 2:1 ? Any tips for making it ergonomical? The times that I have 2:1 hauled, the bags are heavy or dragging on a slab, and it still takes some "oomph" thrusting with my hips to get the load up.

jt newgardwrote:

 

P.S. An excellent point about closing the system, Alex. I'm curious -- about how heavy of a load are you foot pumping with your 2:1 ? Any tips for making it ergonomical? The times that I have 2:1 hauled, the bags are heavy or dragging on a slab, and it still takes some "oomph" thrusting with my hips to get the load up.

I use 1:1 most of the time and deploy the 2:1 only if a pitch gives me trouble. I pack pretty light and have only done walls in a maximum of 3 day / 2 nights plus a rope fixing day and ground night.

I weighed everything we brought on zodiac including bags, ropes, harness, food, water, etc and it was total 175lbs of equipment for 2 people but it’s never all in the haul bag at once. 

I can’t imagine a scenario where foot pumping a 2:1 would be better than a 1:1

I’m bigger’ish and I always go 1:1 as soon as possible.. 

Whippers Gonna Whip!!

strap in!!! 

Maybe a silly question but is anybody using a normal nylon dogbone? Usual strength in the 20-22kn

For the record, I bought a metal one from Skot, have used it on many walls, and love it.

WadeMwrote:

Maybe a silly question but is anybody using a normal nylon dogbone? Usual strength in the 20-22kn

For the record, I bought a metal one from Skot, have used it on many walls, and love it.

Yeah, I use a normal dogbone.