Risk management in areas with both single and multi-pitch climbing

At the end, we all topped out unharmed, but my partner and I had to wait an hour and fifteen minutes at the top for them to top out, just to retrieve gear of ours that they had to clip into at belays.

I would never do this. Throw in an impending thunderstorm and you could have been in trouble. Take the time to get your gear back before you leave the anchor, is my take.

aikibujinwrote:

Woah! Mind blown. Please say more!

...and so they did!

(I tell myself that I should do something more important with my time, like write a letter to pass out in my neighborhood about politicians on the ballot this November, who I am supporting and why, along with a QR code to voter registration...  but here I am again.  Sigh.)

We decide every moment in climbing what level of risk we are willing to take - from the moment we leave the car.

How far backcountry are you willing to go? How far between bolts, or how good is the gear? Do you trust your partner? What is the weather, or rock quality? Are you going to get trampled by the elk in the trail?  There are 100s of mitigating factors, and these change throughout the course of the day.  I think of people like clouds - they come and they go. Some are dangerous, and we should probably bail. Some are cool and interesting, and remind me of other things. But I don't try to change people any more than I try to change the weather.  If it looks sketchy, I just bail and live to climb another day.

On more than several occasions I have left the crag because I didn't want to watch someone die that day.  Whether it's watching them set up a questionable anchor, or their dog running around biting children, or the loop of slack that touches the ground while they are belaying - that's it. Pack it up and move somewhere else. PEOPLE are my #1 most dangerous mitigating factor. (That's why I like alpine climbing so much. Way, way safer than chuffing with noobs.)

But alas, people aren't going anywhere. I believe the REAL answer is to open up more climbing areas to spread the love around. (There is SO much good rock up and down Hwy 36 that isn't accessed because of private land. What happened to Deville? Does the camp really "own" it, or just the parking?) We need to get more FS, BLM, and wilderness areas open and accessible. There just isn't enough good rock to go around.

Free Spiritwrote:

We decide every moment in climbing what level of risk we are willing to take - from the moment we leave the car.

... But I don't try to change people any more than I try to change the weather.  If it looks sketchy I just bail and live to climb another day.

Speaking of cars, did you know that driving is dangerous? But that doesn't mean we don't try to reduce the risk of driving by having rules in place. Maybe one person would like to have a beer or two while they drive and is willing to take the risk, but they can't do that because their action also affects others.

People who throw around this "climbing is dangerous" as the answer to everything seem to think no one else knows that. No, we know. We know climbing is dangerous. But just because something is dangerous doesn't mean you can't and shouldn't try to reduce the risk, to yourself and to others.

If I see a car swerving around on the highway, I'll do everything I can to "bail" out of the situation. Or maybe I should only drive on backcountry roads far away from cities so I don't encounter crazy drivers. Or maybe we should build a lot of roads so we can all drive far away from each other. But the real answer is that we make rules to say we can't drive while having a beer, or watching a movie, or texting my best buddy, or imagining that I'm a NASCAR driver. Because no matter what kind of risk I'm willing to take with my life, if my actions affect others then it's no longer just about me.

aikibujinwrote:

Speaking of cars, did you know that driving is dangerous? But that doesn't mean we don't try to reduce the risk of driving by having rules in place. Maybe one person would like to have a beer or two while they drive and is willing to take the risk, but they can't do that because their action also affects others.

People who throw around this "climbing is dangerous" as the answer to everything seem to think no one else knows that. No, we know. We know climbing is dangerous. But just because something is dangerous doesn't mean you can't and shouldn't try to reduce the risk, to yourself and to others.

If I see a car swerving around on the highway, I'll do everything I can to "bail" out of the situation. Or maybe I should only drive on backcountry roads far away from cities so I don't encounter crazy drivers. Or maybe we should build a lot of roads so we can all drive far away from each other. But the real answer is that we make rules to say we can't drive while having a beer, or watching a movie, or texting my best buddy, or imagining that I'm a NASCAR driver. Because no matter what kind of risk I'm willing to take with my life, if my actions affect others then it's no longer just about me.

Safety starts with the individual. Don't climb beneath people. If you're under a party, you got there second, it's first come first serve.

phylp phylpwrote:

I witnessed exactly this last month in San Diego while I was having lunch at a nice restaurant on a major street. 

ooohhhh, unfortunately i can one-up you here.  i was sitting in a train waiting to go home when a guy look off all his clothes, took a dump on the station platform, and then rolled around in it.  he had this intense look of ecstasy about him, as if he were performing some holy ritual.  it was pretty fucked up.

so, maybe i am on the wrong track about taking a big dump at the base of the crag as being a standard no-no.

Tradibanwrote:

Safety starts with the individual. Don't climb beneath people. If you're under a party, you got there second, it's first come first serve.

Right!?!

And even if you're there FIRST and it seems unsafe, then leave. ...or keep being the party that is climbing single-pitch under the assholes who went higher.  They might be rude, but by staying there - YOU'RE being dumb.  Your choice. 

As mom my always said, "You may be right, but you don't want to be DEAD right."

And if there's drunk drivers on the road, pull over and let them pass. My point EXACTLY, everything is dangerous. Climb around me or walk away - your choice.  Eat Cheetos, die of diabetes or go rock climbing. But for fuck's sake, quit trying to virtue signal and regulate every aspect of life. Climb or don't climb, I don't care. But I can't whitewash the whole world.

Tzilla Rapdrillawrote:

...On the other hand the upper pitches of Too at The Little Eiger should be completely avoided except for maybe very early in the morning.  There are a lot of climbers that I have seen dragging their ropes across ledges, etc., completely disregarding the consequence to anyone who might be below.  

yeah, this is the first route i always think of when this kind of issue comes up. i remember a little bit of good climbing and a lot of being stressed out about the slightest movement knocking shit down.  especially when descending.  we did it on a day when nobody was there, but i was still really worried about knocking something down onto the road.

Free Spiritwrote:

Right!?!

And even if you're there FIRST and it seems unsafe, then leave. ...or keep being the party that is climbing single-pitch under the assholes who went higher.  They might be rude, but by staying there - YOU'RE being dumb.  Your choice. 

As mom my always said, "You may be right, but you don't want to be DEAD right."

And if there's drunk drivers on the road, pull over and let them pass. My point EXACTLY, everything is dangerous. Climb around me or walk away - your choice.  Eat Cheetos, die of diabetes or go rock climbing. But for fuck's sake, quit trying to virtue signal and regulate every aspect of life. Climb or don't climb, I don't care. But I can't whitewash the whole world.

Everyone agrees that the people who head up to a crag, see sketchy shit above, and continue onwards are being foolish (and bear an element of responsibility for any subsequent accident). There's nothing wrong with that 'Don't be dead right' mantra.

However, the party above is also acting antisocially if they knowingly choose to put others at risk by climbing choss above a crowded/popular area (the aforementioned multipitch at Little Eiger in CCC is exactly what I had in mind). Hoping for common sense and courtesy to become SOP isn't 'regulating every aspect of life'. Swear to god, any suggestion to be considerate of others is inevitably met with a 'PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY!!! THE WORLD IS A DANGEROUS PLACE' reply from libertarian types. I've seen numerous gumbies knock rocks off the top of a crag trying to set up makeshift TR anchors in an area with loose clifftops and anchors bolted on the face to avoid this exact scenario. I have and will continue to discourage that behavior, and I am glad the guidebook discourages it as well. People will still act recklessly/selfishly, and you can't eliminate risk entirely, but there's no harm in applying a little social pressure to discourage needless risk.

Tradibanwrote:

Safety starts with the individual. Don't climb beneath people. If you're under a party, you got there second, it's first come first serve.

Um, no. Ever hear of a route that traverses?

PRRosewrote:

Um, no. Ever hear of a route that traverses?

Lol as if this changes anything

PRRosewrote:

Um, no. Ever hear of a route that traverses?

That’s the way the cookie crumbles. If you don’t feel “safe” then walk away. You aren’t entitled to tell people what to climb and when to climb it.

This whole thing is just another version of the wet rock police……I can almost see the whiny instagram posts now….

Tradibanwrote:

.... If you're under a party, you got there second, it's first come first serve.

It is simply factually incorrect that "if you're under a party, you got there second."

At Monitor Rock (near Twin Lakes, CO) there is a multipitch route that traverses over the top of a number of popular climbs. I (and many others) have been climbing on the face below that route when parties have started up it. I had a very close call there a few years ago when a party on the multipitch route sent rocks down from above. My partner and I were able to dive beneath an overhang, but some slings and biners were destroyed.

Tzilla mentions the route Too! at Little Eiger in Clear Creek Canyon. That takes a line above a number of popular single pitch routes, and it's notoriously loose (it's especially dangerous when pulling ropes). Whenever I have seen anyone on the route, they were not the first party at the crag.

Tradibanwrote:

That’s the way the cookie crumbles. If you see a drunk driver then just pull over. You aren’t entitled to tell people what to drink and when to drive.

Is this how you really feel?

I kept using drunk driving as an example because it's just so perfect.

Sincerely,

Wet Rock Police

slimwrote:

i remember the very first time i went to climb a multi-pitch route. right as we are walking into eldo, a blood soaked guy was getting carried out on a stretcher.  he had been hit in the head by rockfall. i don't know if he made it or not (pre-internet), but it really had a sobering affect on me. on another occasion my partner was hit by rockfall really high up on an alpine route and we had to self rescue.  the first and worst falls i ever took was due to a hold breaking.

(reviving an old comment) : This is exactly what I thought about when I read this incident. As I was roping up at the base of 'touch and go' a few large blocks (minutes apart.. almost as if they were being thrown down) landed near the start of the climb with no obvious climber activity above. Clearly rockfall can happen on single pitch craggin days as well, and I think a big part of the lesson is to be aware of the danger and mitigate it as much as possible by where you stand when at the base of routes. 

Diablo canyon also has excellent multi-pitch routes with single pitch climbs directly below. Lots of the climbs are creaky and loose but fantastic. It is difficult to know how to manage that but I would just say the starting point is communication. If people are on the single pitch routes, tell them you are planning on climbing higher and that you will be careful but to stay aware for falling rock. The "first come first serve" ethic really only applies to the specific route you are on imo. 

I'd put myself in the mindset of I understand climbing below people can be dangerous and I hope everyone just does their best to be aware of rockfall and mitigate it as best as we can (which might include leaving an area, not doing a climb). Beyond that all I can say is sometimes shit happens and all you can do is hope you are lucky. 

Lena chitawrote:

Of course you always want to do things to mitigate the risk of rockfall. I’m not suggesting that you should throw rocks off your belay ledge, etc. I’m just saying...

TLDR

The most practical mitigation probably IS to throw loose rocks off when you can safely do so.  I'm frequently carrying rocks down when I rap' as well and think you should too.  Report the big ones.  Carefully pull ropes, and be aware stuff breaks sometimes.  Cleaning debris when creating routes is frequently the hardest work when establishing routes but weathering never ends.  We're all in the risk mitigation game, not the elimination of risk. 

aikibujinwrote:

Is this how you really feel?

I kept using drunk driving as an example because it's just so perfect.

Sincerely,

Wet Rock Police

You conflated Free Spirit and myself.

If I had a dime for every horrible analogy made on this website I’d be rich. Drunk driving is not the same because you can define drunk and not drunk, chossy and not chossy is not so. Plus roads are government regulated, climbing routes are not (yet).

Cherokee Nuneswrote:

I would never do this. Throw in an impending thunderstorm and you could have been in trouble. Take the time to get your gear back before you leave the anchor, is my take.

My inclination too, but there was simply no good way to do it. when I was at a belay with one of them, I was belaying my leader and he was belaying his follower. There was no point where you could start fiddling with the anchor without endangering your partner. Most belays were two points only. If the thunderstorm rolled in, we would have been out a locking biner and an alpine draw.

Tradibanwrote:

You conflated Free Spirit and myself.

If I had a dime for every horrible analogy made on this website I’d be rich. Drunk driving is not the same because you can define drunk and not drunk, chossy and not chossy is not so. Plus roads are government regulated, climbing routes are not (yet).

I know you are not the same person... or are you? Hmmmmm. You both have remarkably similar arguments: 1. climbing is dangerous. (I agree, stating the obvious.) 2. There are some things we can do to manage the risk. (Again, I agree) 3. But we can't tell others what to do. This is where I disagree, and drunk driving is just an example of an action (drinking) if you do it away from people, we don't care. You can drink as much as you want on your own, then go swimming, go cliff diving. There's no law against any of that. But as soon as your action has a potential to harm others (getting behind the wheel of a car), then we (as a society) should and will tell you what you can do. Same logic applies to climbing. If you're climbing away from others, you can go free solo the chossiest choss pile and no one can tell you what to do with your life. But as soon as you're climbing near other people and your action may affect others or put others at risk, then we (climbers as a group) should and will tell you what you can do. There's already precedence for this, climbers tell others what they can do all the time. Some people call that ethics but it's just telling others what to do.

aikibujinwrote:

 If you're climbing away from others, you can go free solo the chossiest choss pile and no one can tell you what to do with your life. But as soon as you're climbing near other people and your action may affect others or put others at risk, then we (climbers as a group) should and will tell you what you can do. There's already precedence for this, climbers tell others what they can do all the time. Some people call that ethics but it's just telling others what to do.

But what about when the people start following you up free-solo choss piles - and then complain it's not safe and needs to be retrofitted? 

Climbing was never that safe to begin with.

aikibujinwrote:

I know you are not the same person... or are you? Hmmmmm. You both have remarkably similar arguments: 1. climbing is dangerous. (I agree, stating the obvious.) 2. There are some things we can do to manage the risk. (Again, I agree) 3. But we can't tell others what to do. This is where I disagree, and drunk driving is just an example of an action (drinking) if you do it away from people, we don't care. You can drink as much as you want on your own, then go swimming, go cliff diving. There's no law against any of that. But as soon as your action has a potential to harm others (getting behind the wheel of a car), then we (as a society) should and will tell you what you can do. Same logic applies to climbing. If you're climbing away from others, you can go free solo the chossiest choss pile and no one can tell you what to do with your life. But as soon as you're climbing near other people and your action may affect others or put others at risk, then we (climbers as a group) should and will tell you what you can do. There's already precedence for this, climbers tell others what they can do all the time. Some people call that ethics but it's just telling others what to do.

Climbing is unregulated and as a "community" climbers certainly do try to tell people what to do all the time, but none of it is enforceable and most people ignore the fascists anyway. Your plan would be like citizens pulling over anyone they think is drunk.

I have personally talked people out of climbing dangerous routes, but I'm not selfishly doing it so I can climb adjacent routes, I'm doing it so they don't kill themselves.

If they ignore me I just stay the hell away, because it's first come first serve.