May 8 stuck climbers on Whodunit

getting back to the rescue, i do have a few questions.  how did they get stuck?  if you can get past the first pitch on whodunnit the rest is a walkup.  even if they did get stuck, why couldn't they just rap down (even if it meant leaving some gear)? it sounds/looks like they were all un-injured, had ropes and gear, and generally in good morale. really odd.

having climbed a bit at tahquitz, one of the things that has been really striking is the lack of competency of many of the climbers. i have seen people take 3 hours to lead a single pitch on WMW, and then their second didn't know how to break down an anchor. they were totally stuck until another party climbed up to them and helped out.  almost every time i go somebody launches some blocks down some route. in some ways, i think the new theory of not busting people's chunks about this kind of thing isn't really doing them (or anybody else) a service in the long run.

slimwrote:

getting back to the rescue, i do have a few questions.  how did they get stuck?  if you can get past the first pitch on whodunnit the rest is a walkup.  even if they did get stuck, why couldn't they just rap down (even if it meant leaving some gear)? it sounds/looks like they were all un-injured, had ropes and gear, and generally in good morale. really odd.

having climbed a bit at tahquitz, one of the things that has been really striking is the lack of competency of many of the climbers. i have seen people take 3 hours to lead a single pitch on WMW, and then their second didn't know how to break down an anchor. they were totally stuck until another party climbed up to them and helped out.  almost every time i go somebody launches some blocks down some route. in some ways, i think the new theory of not busting people's chunks about this kind of thing isn't really doing them (or anybody else) a service in the long run.

They said they got stuck behind a slower party, tried to pass, and the party said no. Then “the party above started dropping rocks down onto them” so they went out right at one of the ledges. They assumed they were way farther off route and in harder terrain but they were only 25ish’ off route if I remember correctly

The reason they didn’t rap is because they “didn’t feel comfortable to rap the route”. It was because the cold or something along those lines. They had all the gear to do 70m raps i just don’t think they had been in that experience before so they called

theres A lot of assumptions in here that the younger generation is more dependent on others and less on themselves. I’m sure that’s true in some situations but this one is a poor example. Climbing is more accessible and I see a lot of different people in Idyllwild, most younger. None of them have any issues up there and make it down just fine

slimwrote:

getting back to the rescue, i do have a few questions.  how did they get stuck?  if you can get past the first pitch on whodunnit the rest is a walkup.  even if they did get stuck, why couldn't they just rap down (even if it meant leaving some gear)? it sounds/looks like they were all un-injured, had ropes and gear, and generally in good morale. really odd.

having climbed a bit at tahquitz, one of the things that has been really striking is the lack of competency of many of the climbers. i have seen people take 3 hours to lead a single pitch on WMW, and then their second didn't know how to break down an anchor. they were totally stuck until another party climbed up to them and helped out.  almost every time i go somebody launches some blocks down some route. in some ways, i think the new theory of not busting people's chunks about this kind of thing isn't really doing them (or anybody else) a service in the long run.

I agree with you about competency up there being questionable at times but what "service" is it doing to shame people for calling for a rescue? These three people got in over their heads. They COULD have tried to rap the route in the dark when feeling uneasy about that. They weren't entirely sure where they were and that entire area of Lily Rock has loose blocks and, also, rope eating cracks if you were trying to pull a double 70 meter rope setup. People die way more frequently rapping than climbing, too. So without knowing anything about the "why" of what they did I'm willing to take it at face value that they know better than I do that they needed someone to help them get SAFELY off the rock. 

Bet they don't do it again, too. They don't need us to shame them. 

Andrew Ricewrote:

I agree with you about competency up there being questionable at times but what "service" is it doing to shame people for calling for a rescue? These three people got in over their heads. They COULD have tried to rap the route in the dark when feeling uneasy about that. They weren't entirely sure where they were and that entire area of Lily Rock has loose blocks and, also, rope eating cracks if you were trying to pull a double 70 meter rope setup. People die way more frequently rapping than climbing, too. So without knowing anything about the "why" of what they did I'm willing to take it at face value that they know better than I do that they needed someone to help them get SAFELY off the rock. 

Bet they don't do it again, too. They don't need us to shame them.

Maybe, maybe not, who's to say. Shame isn't a bad word, failure isn't either. Certainly anytime someone risks their lives to save someone off a cliff at midnight deserves some real conversation publicly.

slimwrote:

getting back to the rescue, i do have a few questions.  how did they get stuck?  if you can get past the first pitch on whodunnit the rest is a walkup.  even if they did get stuck, why couldn't they just rap down (even if it meant leaving some gear)? it sounds/looks like they were all un-injured, had ropes and gear, and generally in good morale. really odd.

having climbed a bit at tahquitz, one of the things that has been really striking is the lack of competency of many of the climbers. i have seen people take 3 hours to lead a single pitch on WMW, and then their second didn't know how to break down an anchor. they were totally stuck until another party climbed up to them and helped out.  almost every time i go somebody launches some blocks down some route. in some ways, i think the new theory of not busting people's chunks about this kind of thing isn't really doing them (or anybody else) a service in the long run.

A thorough tour of all the blood stains around should be mandatory for any climber before they head up the wall. Text me noobs I'm happy to oblige.

Andrew Ricewrote:

I agree with you about competency up there being questionable at times but what "service" is it doing to shame people for calling for a rescue? These three people got in over their heads. They COULD have tried to rap the route in the dark when feeling uneasy about that. They weren't entirely sure where they were and that entire area of Lily Rock has loose blocks and, also, rope eating cracks if you were trying to pull a double 70 meter rope setup. People die way more frequently rapping than climbing, too. So without knowing anything about the "why" of what they did I'm willing to take it at face value that they know better than I do that they needed someone to help them get SAFELY off the rock. 

Bet they don't do it again, too. They don't need us to shame them. 

i still don't get how a party could make it through the first pitch, and yet be completely unable to get down with a rack and 2 ropes.  sure, they might have to do some thinking about where/when/how to do it, but ????  and they were a party of 3 that got stuck behind another party and couldn't pass? how did the other party manage to top out and not get dragged into all of it?  couldn't the party of 3 ask if they could hitchike to the top with the slowpokes? seems kind of fishy...

do people really die way more frequently rapping than climbing? i thought that had been debunked.

it would also be interesting to see how many people that get rescued need rescuing again.  it seems like a stretch to assume that somehow they won't.

They don't need us to shame them.

Poor little boogers, coddled and swathed since birth, they just aren't up for the reality of 7 hours of darkness.

slimwrote:

 seems kind of fishy...

do people really die way more frequently rapping than climbing? i thought that had been debunked.

it would also be interesting to see how many people that get rescued need rescuing again.  it seems like a stretch to assume that somehow they won't.

"Seems kind of fishy..."
this is exactly what I was talking about. Do you think they stood around freezing their asses off and scared because they were just too LAZY? Were they doing it for profit? What's the "fishy" motive? Something happened that made them feel they couldn't go up and didn't feel safe going down. Do we need to launch an investigation to be sure their reasons are valid? I never see SAR folk actually questioning motives like this.

Re. Rapping. I may be wrong, statistically, but I know some really good climbers who died rapping. A lot of mistakes get made when cold, lost and scared. Maybe you would have done it just fine. I take people at face value when they decide to not do something dangerous because they feel unprepared for it.

The biggest mistake I see this team making is that they didn't have any remotely warm clothing on a spring multi pitch at Tahquitz.

Different sport, but when I first started sailing I ran aground on a sandbar at the entrance of Santa Barbara Harbor in a 24-foot sailboat. A racing sailboat crewed by a bunch of yachties jeered us as a grizzled old shrimper pulled up and threw me a line to pull us off. He shook his fist at the racing yacht and said, "Fuck those guys. if you haven't ever been aground, you haven't been sailing!" Then he yanked us off and wished us well. I try to embody that guy's spirit when encountering other less-experienced people learning new sports or even old ones. 

Andrew Ricewrote:

Different sport, but when I first started sailing I ran aground on a sandbar at the entrance of Santa Barbara Harbor in a 24-foot sailboat. A racing sailboat crewed by a bunch of yachties jeered us as a grizzled old shrimper pulled up and threw me a line to pull us off. He shook his fist at the racing yacht and said, "Fuck those guys. if you haven't ever been aground, you haven't been sailing!" Then he yanked us off and wished us well. I try to embody that guy's spirit when encountering other less-experienced people learning new sports or even old ones. 

If you "run aground" at Tahquitz, you're already dead.

The only thing fishy here is why they deserve to be coddled. Failure and shame are part of living and growing.

SAR- glad they exist, feel sorry for them sometimes 

slimwrote:

do people really die way more frequently rapping than climbing? i thought that had been debunked.

I've often heard "Rappelling is the most dangerous part of climbing." It's a bit more nuanced than that.

In 2013 I wrote a book on rappelling (titled Rappelling) and did some statistical analysis on rappelling accidents. Accidents in North American Mountaineering detailed 3674 rock climbing accidents in the US over 48 years (from 1951-1998). By far the highest category was leader falls (2548; 69%) Only 221 were rappelling accidents (about 6%). But since many rappelling accidents are fatal, as a category, rappelling has the highest percentage of fatalities. If you look at the highest total number of fatalities for a category, that would be leader falls.

Slagging on young people is BS. These are soft times to grow up in?

Bob Gaineswrote:

I've often heard "Rappelling is the most dangerous part of climbing." It's a bit more nuanced than that.

In 2013 I wrote a book on rappelling (titled Rappelling) and did some statistical analysis on rappelling accidents. Accidents in North American Mountaineering detailed 3674 rock climbing accidents in the US over 48 years (from 1951-1998). By far the highest category was leader falls (2548; 69%) Only 221 were rappelling accidents (about 6%). But since many rappelling accidents are fatal, as a category, rappelling has the highest percentage of fatalities. If you look at the highest total number of fatalities for a category, that would be leader falls.

Bob, parse out those "leader falls" for us, has to be leaders hit by rock or something, it can't be taken whippers and dying, can it?!

Tradibanwrote:

Bob, parse out those "leader falls" for us, has to be leaders hit by rock or something, it can't be taken whippers and dying, can it?!

69% of rock climbing accidents were leader falls, about 20% of those being fatal.

These are accidents documented by the publication Accidents in North American Mountaineering, published by the American Alpine Club, which is a small subset of total accidents, since they publish only accidents reported to them, which tend to be the most serious and famous accidents.

These statistics give you insight into which accidents occur most frequently, and in many cases, what to avoid. For example, the most common rappelling accident, by far, is simply rappelling off the end of the rope. Happens again and again, year after year.

too late for a wimpy tahquitz rescue run down memory lane?

Anyone remember that one dude's wife who was bragging about her hubby getting rescued? that was a classic 

Gumby boy kingwrote:

too late for a wimpy tahquitz rescue run down memory lane?

Anyone remember that one dude's wife who was bragging about her hubby getting rescued? that was a classic 

Link please!

Bob Gaineswrote:

I've often heard "Rappelling is the most dangerous part of climbing." It's a bit more nuanced than that.

In 2013 I wrote a book on rappelling (titled Rappelling) and did some statistical analysis on rappelling accidents. Accidents in North American Mountaineering detailed 3674 rock climbing accidents in the US over 48 years (from 1951-1998). By far the highest category was leader falls (2548; 69%) Only 221 were rappelling accidents (about 6%). But since many rappelling accidents are fatal, as a category, rappelling has the highest percentage of fatalities. If you look at the highest total number of fatalities for a category, that would be leader falls.

Thanks, Bob. My point about "more dangerous" is about statistical occurrence vs raw numbers. More people die drowning it backyard pools every year than wing suiting. That doesn't make swimming in backyard pools more dangerous than wing suiting.

It makes sense that there are a lot more lead climbing accidents than rappelling ones, because lots of climbing doesn't involve rappelling. Tahquitz is a great example of that, as you know. Most of us walk off the North Gully or Friction Descent. But statistically, per rap, vs. per lead climb pitch, I suspect rappelling is the source of more deaths. I could also be wrong, but these people who waited for rescue on Whodunnit probably had solid reasons for not rapping off into the darkness on unfamiliar terrain. Even if it's just that they were really scared. 

Tradibanwrote:

If you "run aground" at Tahquitz, you're already dead.

Solid point. Also, no salty shrimper likely to pull you off the sandbar, though you come close, Nick. 

Yoda Jedi Knightwrote:

Link please!

couldnt find it..... definitely happened tho. it was a whodunit rescue like 3? years ago

Andrew Ricewrote:

.... I could also be wrong, but these people who waited for rescue on Whodunnit probably had solid reasons for not rapping off into the darkness on unfamiliar terrain. Even if it's just that they were really scared. 

i am curious to know these reasons.  it's not like it instantly became dark.  the route isn't very tall, with a rope and a small amount of gear a party could easily get down in less than an hour.  seems like they could have greatly reduced the amount of time shivering by just bailing.

the more i think about it, the more i am also curious about the "climbers above dropping rocks on them".  IIRC, the only pitches with any loose rock are the 2nd and third (and it is easily avoidable).  i don't remember any loose rock on the last pitch.