Simul’ing? Yeah or neah?

What are your thoughts on simul’ing with a nano or micro? Do you think if the second falls that the system might work so that the micro catches the second? In the event of a second falling, do you think the leader might not be pulled off? When I simul I often use an entire 70m and the micro or nano goes on a piece around 220’ from the beginning of the pitch.

Edit due to comment: this question is playing with simul’ing grades difficult enough where the 2nd might fall. I’m wondering if micros/nanos are actually catching seconds who fall. I’m comfortable enough micro’ing on a fixed rope because the nano and backup micro are right there in front of me and I can see them. While simul’ing, once I accidentally got way off route and the micro which was 100’ away did lock up and I was unable to get any slack back to reverse my moves. That caused some issues, though it showed me the micro was essentially working in that slow controlled environment).

seems like pretty long odds it won’t work. I’ve spent some large number of days microtraxoning and never have had an issue with the micro “not working”. Maybe since the rope might be swinging it around and bashing it into the rock it’s a higher risk (?).

Anyways, it seems like multiplying two unlikely events- micro fails, second falls 

i think it’s also reasonable to use this setup to simulclimb closer to the followers limit, but ymmv.

Disclaimer: YMMV

I use micro/nano to add some possible security in the unlikely event of a follower falling.

I generally have three for a route with lots of simul potential, fewer if i think there is less potential. 

I generally shorten the rope, though, to about half (25-35m), to reduce potential drag and it gets the 2nd person climbing sooner and then the 2nd person to the belay sooner (maximizing time both people are climbing = maximizing time benofit).

I also place the trax where i can afford it to *not* be extended (i.e. it wont blow up my rope drag) and ideally with a downward piece to hold it low down even lower (and essentially prevents itbfrom flopping all over the place) = this keeps it in position to limit the slack taken from the leader before catching the follower in the event of a follower falling. That may be though to visualize, but think about the opposite = with a 120cm runner on the trax, how much slack do you pull from leader before the follower would go tight ... probably enough to pull the leader into a potentially dangerous position (i.e. a fall) and thus negating most of the benofit. It is crucial to be able place the trax with that arrangement quickly, or you start to lose some time benefit of simuling (the main point of the whole thing away).

All that does taken some brain power to think about where to place, and sometimes you may be climbing without a trax in the system - does that meet acceptable risk tolerance? Maybe, but maybe not. 

The short rope alao makes it easy to decide to opt for a full/real belay since the follower will be there soon and then similarly after the section with a desired belay you could quickly resume sinuling (very similar to a guide transitioning in/out of short rope and short pitch tactics).

Hopefully that gives some additional insight,

Cheers,

Dave

Thorough treatment here:
http://chossboys.weebly.com/outdoor-techniques/theory-of-simul-climbing

mike againwrote:

Thorough treatment here:
http://chossboys.weebly.com/outdoor-techniques/theory-of-simul-climbing

Thanks! Great overview! They mentioned they’d fallen three times with the techniques and it worked. In all three cases the progress capture device was clipped directly to a bolt. I’m understanding the system more now. 

Dave Schultzwrote:

I generally shorten the rope, though, to about half (25-35m), to reduce potential drag and it gets the 2nd person climbing sooner and then the 2nd person to the belay sooner (maximizing time both people are climbing = maximizing time benofit).

When you shorten the rope to half, do you carry the other half of the rope or do you make it into a double rope system (letting the follower tie into the middle)? Is there a reason to do one over the other?

Not Hobo Greg wrote:

1/10 troll.

Haha. Naw. Just dabbling in an area I’m not familiar. In Chamonix I would move through terrain with half the rope over my shoulders in a mountaineers coil, then butterflied to my belay loop, short roping etc where needed. This is different terrain now  which is vertical rock. Shortening the rope probably wouldn’t work with my current partner. since he likes to go forever… with two micros and a 72m rope we can cover some terrain. We have radios so we can communicate… “you only have 20’ until I really really need a belay”. 

Your asking a good question, I’ve wondered the same when I was REALLY into simulclimbing.

longer rope = more weight/potential drag + more stretch in the system.  I found 35-40 meters to feel about right.

Never personally had a fall, but I’ve heard plenty of stories of the leader holding on and catching the fall.

The leader typically knows where the cruxy parts are, so they should be placing gear to protect that, or if he’s on easy terrain, he can just keep climbing, pulling hard on the follower.

Pro tip- Hans Florein says the leader must never fall, must be 100% or you should not simul.

Pro tip- I asked Honnold this exact question: he likes to use the full 70m (but imagine how little gear he’s placing). 

Honnold emphasized not extending it, and placing a solid piece above it because the micro won’t catch a leader fall.

If something feels off… (you’ll feel it) listen to that feeling and belay or back off.  The accidents always happen when you ignore that feeling.

At the end of the day, you’re constantly assessing risk.  Deciding if (or when) it is appropriate to simul.

Last note: Watch your ego.  Make sure there is a good reason you’re Simuling in the first place. It’s easy to get caught up in thinking you and your partner are the best climbers ever, and you’re so fast, and you’ll never fall… 

(I’ve been there)

We found this helpful working through some systems.

https://www.brentbarghahn.com/climbing-blog/safe-simuling-2022

I have tried 70m, but the drag is horrible, at least on easy slabs. So I use 50m

The trax needs to be directly on a bolt or something equally short. On a 60cm sling, far too much chance of being dragged off if the second falls

JeffLwrote:

Honnold emphasized not extending it, and placing a solid piece above it because the micro won’t catch a leader fall.

Just want to underscore this as it isn't immediately obvious and has come up several times with folks i know who are getting into simulclimbing. The entire reason to use a PCP like the traxions is so that a fall by the second doesn't pull off the leader. Extending the piece/bolt to which to which the pulley is attached defeats this capability. The traxion will still catch the rope as normal but the sling or draw will be pulled downard and the leader will feel the hard pull of the traxion being yanked down. Even a single QuickDraw could be 12"-20" of total travel depending on the starting angle of the draw, which can be enough to dislodge the leader from even very secure low 5th class stances. 

 The fact of the pulley helps mitigate some of the rope drag that you would otherwise see from a piece that isn't extended at all, so it's often ok not to extend for drag related reasons. But if the piece in question absolutely has to be extended for some reason (say, sharp edge or crystal), it might be better to opt for a different place to install the pulley.

I don't have much direct experience simulclimbing, but I've taken more falls than I can count on a microtraxion while TR soloing.

My observation is that the success of using a microtraxion is largely going to depend on your ability to keep slack out of the system. If you've got a lot of slack out and the second falls, you risk de-sheathing the rope. And if there's no slack between the trax and the leader (i.e., the slack is all below the trax), de-sheathing the rope will probably pull down enough rope to pull the leader off the wall, too.

EDIT: There was some video floating around last year of some pro climber taking lead falls on a micro traxion halfway up El Cap. She didn't die or even de-sheath the rope. So it's not necessarily a sure thing that you'll de-sheath your rope or die doing this. I still wouldn't do it personally, though.

Some thoughts here: https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/120265081/belay-from-the-top-with-a-micro-traxion?page=3#ForumMessage-122731726

Should have some drop tower testing from Ryan in a few weeks.

Also if anyone is following the channel (it's MP, a bunch of you I'm sure are) you'll see me STRUGGLE aid leading my first roof in a later episode of his new Big Wall Course.

spoiler: I say I'm at the easy part, when I'm very much not...

I have done a good amount of simul. We always shortened the rope to around 30/40m with a kiwi coil. At a cruxy bit, the leader places a PCD directly to the pro (no extension) with an oval biner. 

OP's edited comment: if I thought there was an increasing likelihood of the 2nd falling, I personally wouldn't be simul'ing. 

David Kwrote:

I don't have much direct experience simulclimbing, but I've taken more falls than I can count on a microtraxion while TR soloing.

My observation is that the success of using a microtraxion is largely going to depend on your ability to keep slack out of the system. If you've got a lot of slack out and the second falls, you risk de-sheathing the rope. And if there's no slack between the trax and the leader (i.e., the slack is all below the trax), de-sheathing the rope will probably pull down enough rope to pull the leader off the wall, too.

EDIT: There was some video floating around last year of some pro climber taking lead falls on a micro traxion halfway up El Cap. She didn't die or even de-sheath the rope. So it's not necessarily a sure thing that you'll de-sheath your rope or die doing this. I still wouldn't do it personally, though.

Yep, keeping slack out of the system is key. The second should start out belaying with a Grigri, and I've found it easiest to just leave that on when you start climbing. That gives you some options if you're climbing at a different speed than the leader. Easy ground 10' ahead for you, but leader is stopped putting in pro or at a cruxy bit? Go to the ledge and take in slack with the Grigri as you go, throw in a piece and you can even give a real belay for a minute. 

I've only experienced one fall from a second while simuling. My follower's foothold basically disintegrated on Lakeview (right side of Cannon, lower pitches are choss) and he took a swinging fall. The Roll n Lock did great. I didn't even know until he got to the belay since I was stopped putting in gear at the time.