Cordalette alternatives?

WF WF51wrote:

Additional to carry - something that weighs perhaps/who knows 0.5 pounds - that's the big deal? For what 99.9% of MP posters are doing, it wouldn't matter if they carried a 30 pound rock. Unless they are "in-the-alpine, every second counts when you're racing a storm, blah, blah."  Use the rope, use slings, use a cordallete, it doesn't make any difference.

why wouldn't you want to carry less stuff and optimize your rack to climb less encumbered?

Jake woowrote:

**6mm** is 7.2kn, which is what was initially referenced.

Good point about single strand vs doubled over. Regardless, tie a knot in 6mm and you are lowering the max force your highest rated protection can see before anchor failure due to the cord strength. Tech cord single strand tensile strength is still 18+kn.

This is one of my favorite arguments to watch people make on MP. 6mm and 7mm cord have been used for 40+ years in climbing, yet people still make theoretical arguments based off of lab numbers for real world use cases. 

Can someone please point me to the list of accidents where a fall caused catastrophic failure of a 6mm cord anchor, where cord was tied in a typical manner creating redundant legs? I'm not talking about pieces blowing or the cord getting cut, I'm talking about a case where the above mentioned lab math worked out and the cord failed at the knot and therefore catastrophically failed as an anchor. 

*Just to keep my commentary on track with the original thread... horses for courses. Sometimes cord is the best option. If the route calls for lots of natural anchor building and slinging blocks is an option, cord can be better as its easier to get a longer length. If you may need to bail/leave anchor material, again cord is likely better as its easier to cut and cheaper. 

OP- Webolettes, rabbit runners, and long slings as well as the rope are the alternatives to cordalette. 

NateCwrote:

This is one of my favorite arguments to watch people make on MP. 6mm and 7mm cord have been used for 40+ years in climbing, yet people still make theoretical arguments based off of lab numbers for real world use cases. 

Can someone please point me to the list of accidents where a fall caused catastrophic failure of a 6mm cord anchor, where cord was tied in a typical manner creating redundant legs? I'm not talking about pieces blowing or the cord getting cut, I'm talking about a case where the above mentioned lab math worked out and the cord failed at the knot and therefore catastrophically failed as an anchor. 

I think it's because we're not comparing apples to apples. I acknowledged the doubled over vs single strand difference. My next comment references 'single strand tensile strength' vs 'typical manner creating redundant legs.' Sometimes I need some length and it's a single strand and not doubled over. To me, I can have 5-6mm tech cord that is 2.5x the tensile strength for the extra cost of $5. I can make a single strand or a doubled over strand and get warm fuzzy feelings about it. The answer is I probably just want to be overly safe and overly cautious and I can do so cheaply and still have my smaller 6mm cord.

Jake woowrote:

I think it's because we're not comparing apples to apples. I acknowledged the doubled over vs single strand difference. My next comment references 'single strand tensile strength' vs 'typical manner creating redundant legs.' Sometimes I need some length and it's a single strand and not doubled over. To me, I can have 5-6mm tech cord that is 2.5x the tensile strength for the extra cost of $5. I can make a single strand or a doubled over strand and get warm fuzzy feelings about it. The answer is I probably just want to be overly safe and overly cautious and I can do so cheaply and still have my smaller 6mm cord.

But.... if you're making an anchor and want to safe, you're doubling your strands. Both are going to be plenty strong in that case. Doesn't really matter that one is stronger - strong enough is enough.

If you need a single strand.... I assume you mean for rapps if need to leave stuff behind, and need a long cord to sling boulder/large tree? In that case, the single strand of 6mm is still strong enough.

Franck Veewrote:

But.... if you're making an anchor and want to safe, you're doubling your strands. Both are going to be plenty strong in that case. Doesn't really matter that one is stronger - strong enough is enough.

If you need a single strand.... I assume you mean for rapps if need to leave stuff behind, and need a long cord to sling boulder/large tree? In that case, the single strand of 6mm is still strong enough.

https://people.bath.ac.uk/dac33/high/6TheBelay.htm#belaysthatlargelydontusetherope

I'm thinking of picture 5 in Chapter 6. You need some greater length to reach pieces farther apart so you wind up with a single strand. If I start with stronger material, my single strand is strong enough. If I don't need additional length, I can easily double them up. If I want to make my anchor safe, I'm making it strong enough regardless of method. Doubling my strands increases the tensile strength, but if a single strand is strong enough, then isn't it strong enough? Doubled over strands isn't more redundant, unless you tie a knot/clove hitch, since one can cut and then both fall off. If you anchor with the rope, which is presumably stronger than the tech cord, you generally have a single strand to all pieces. If whichever cord you use is strong enough, then a single strand should be fine.

Agreed on points for tat rap. Almost any cord is strong enough.

For the sake of not beating a dead horse any longer, my argument is simply that 5.9mm tech cord is stronger than 7mm regular cord is stronger than 6mm regular cord. I can have my compact <6mm cord and get a slightly more versatile tool. I can have my cake and eat it too.

Cordelettes can be handy if one person is doing all the leading or if the party is leading in blocks.  For parties swinging leads, the rope is all that is needed for anchors.

Guides like cordelettes because guides are always leading. So naturally clients/guests think cordelettes are required.

WF WF51wrote:

Additional to carry - something that weighs perhaps/who knows 0.5 pounds - that's the big deal? For what 99.9% of MP posters are doing, it wouldn't matter if they carried a 30 pound rock.

It's not the weight - it's the extra stuff and the cluster it makes on your harness.

Marc801 Cwrote:

It's not the weight - it's the extra stuff and the cluster it makes on your harness.

A single carabiner of space on the back loop is completely unnoticed. I'll never understand hardcore "you should only use the rope" people. 

5m of Edelrid tech webbing made into a bunny ear sling is my go to. 

that guy named sebwrote:

A single carabiner of space on the back loop is completely unnoticed. I'll never understand hardcore "you should only use the rope" people. 

5m of Edelrid tech webbing made into a bunny ear sling is my go to. 

Weight and bulk starts at 0. Everyone draws their line in a different spot. Why not carry my more if it's just "one more carabiner"

that guy named sebwrote:

A single carabiner of space on the back loop is completely unnoticed. I'll never understand hardcore "you should only use the rope" people. 

5m of Edelrid tech webbing made into a bunny ear sling is my go to. 

As far as I'm concerned, it has very little to do with extra weight and bulk, and it certainly has nothing to do with any silly attempt at being "hardcore."  The rope is far more versatile and robust than a cordelette and so makes for a better anchoring system unless the same person is leading multiple pitches.  (An exception might be the Eastern Alps, where stances often have multiple fixed pieces of highly variable quality and it has become routine to thread a cordelette through the whole mess, tie it off (no carabiners on the pieces), and girth hitch it to a carabiner master point.

I actually still carry a cordelette (well, not a cord one but one from thin dyneema webbing), because if I have to set up a remote belay (i.e. belay position far from the anchor pieces), then I need something to rig the anchor pieces. A few ordinary sliings would usually do, but sometimes I've used them all up on the pitch.

The cordelette I carry usually makes it up multiple climbs without being deployed, but is handy when needed and has some emergency uses as well.

that guy named sebwrote:

A single carabiner of space on the back loop is completely unnoticed. I'll never understand hardcore "you should only use the rope" people. 

5m of Edelrid tech webbing made into a bunny ear sling is my go to. 

No kidding. I could care less what a partner uses, slings, rope, cordalette, quad, whatever, just tie in, it doesn't matter. We're not doing Olympic time trials, shaving off seconds. 

Can I get a survey of the "just use the rope" / no extra weight/bulk people: 

Do you climb with a pack? Lets say 3+ pitches, mellow walk-off. 

Yes/No

Matt Nwrote:

Can I get a survey of the "just use the rope" / no extra weight/bulk people: 

Do you climb with a pack? Lets say 3+ pitches, mellow walk-off. 

Yes/No

Cragging, no; alpine, probably.

Matt Nwrote:

Can I get a survey of the "just use the rope" / no extra weight/bulk people: 

Do you climb with a pack? Lets say 3+ pitches, mellow walk-off. 

Yes/No

Usually not on anything grade III or below. Maybe haul a small pack on grade IV. Climbing with a pack sucks.

I used to carry a quad length sling but then I realized I was tied into a 200’ cordalette already. 

Started climbing with a 120 ft rope and six single length runners.

Didn’t even know what quick draws or cordeletes were.

Pitches have sure lengthened.

Matt Nwrote:

Can I get a survey of the "just use the rope" / no extra weight/bulk people: 

Do you climb with a pack? Lets say 3+ pitches, mellow walk-off. 

Yes/No

No. Except yes, because all my partners are afraid to go up 3 pitches without 2 liters of water, a first aid kit, an extra jacket, and a pair of cordalettes.

For me, the real annoyance is disassembling the anchor and trying to wrap that huge cord up into a neat bundle.  Untying the knots can actually be worse with a quad dyneema sling.  Life was better when I realized I didn't need the cordalette, the master point, the equalization, etc.

With due respect, if Hans Florine can set El Cap speed records with a variety of cordalette anchors (videos here), perhaps it isn't the cordalette adding complexity to your system.

I've used all three systems mentioned here (two slings, cordalette, rope) and a few systems not mentioned here, and I have to say, I've come across situations with each of these systems where I wished I had used one of the other systems. Using the rope does seem like a clear winner when swapping leads, but swapping leads isn't actually the norm in my climbing. The cordalette wins most of the time (not always) for what I climb, but that could easily change in a different climbing area, and I'm not sure why so many people feel the need to take a hard line stance on this.

Guides like cordellettes because they are always leading, its MUCH faster to escape the belay when your rope is not integrated in the anchor, and all the other benefits and possible uses already mentioned in this thread... or yet to be mentioned.

Desert Rock Sportswrote:

Guides like cordelettes because they are always leading, its MUCH faster to escape the belay when your rope is not integrated in the anchor, and all the other benefits and possible uses already mentioned in this thread... or yet to be mentioned.

Agreed.. but I would also add that a 'Guide' is working - and this means the cliff becomes the 'workplace'. A Guide is also a professional and owes a duty of care to the client - meaning there is a higher level of due care and diligence and adherence to industry codes/standards of practice.
Recreational climbers (ie non Guides) don't have this burden - they aren't bound or obligated in the same sense as a professional.

Professionals need to always consider the possibility of a rescue (or some sort of intervention if things go south).

A 'cordalette' provides professionals with a universally deployable belay anchor system.

[ ] if the pitch is a rope stretcher (ie a pitch that almost uses all the available rope length) - well obviously you cant build an anchor from your rope if you don't have any rope left. This can happen to anyone - not just 'Guides' (eg attempting new routes or alpine routes or even getting off-route).

[ ] If there is a lot of rope drag (could be a number of reasons for this) - its easier to build a 'cordalette' anchor instead of fighting to pull up sufficient rope.

[ ] the ability to 'escape' and/or perform a rescue is simplified/easier when your rope is not trapped within a loaded system

[ ] 'housekeeping' is simplified - rope twists/entanglements are less likely with 'cordalette' belay anchors

[ ] the 'second' (or even 'third') climbers will be exposed to less risk of a fall caused by slack in the system when changing over from belay duty to climbing (the Guide/leader takes in all the slack rope and then the client/second dismantles the 'cordalette' anchor).