“A well placed cam is better than a bolt”

Recently overheard at the climbing gym. My initial response was to interject but i withheld. In My opinion, cams are definitely strong enough to take solid falls when placed correctly, but I couldn’t help but reject this person’s statement in my mind.
thoughts?

I would trust a single keyholed gear placement more than a single unknown bolt. But that's a pretty small subset of "well-placed."

I know there’s going to be a lot of traffic around types of rock and what sized cam. Cams walk, bolts don’t. The bolt placement and age matters as well 

My thoughts are to never interject yourself in any conversation unless it's life or death.......or she's hot......or he's hot...

There’s a lot to consider here, starting with varying definitions of the word “better”.

A well placed modern bolt in good rock that’s not rusted out is stronger than any cam placement.

But you often don’t know a lot of those factors, you have to trust the bolt.

There are many ways in which a cam is better, assuming it’s well placed appropriately in good rock.

1. You know the quality of the placement.
2. You know the age of the gear.

3. It could be in a better location for you, the climber

4. Leave no trace. (Or however you want to discuss the ethics of bolts in general)

Etc.

So you could make a good argument that cams are “better” if you assume that either piece is strong enough to catch you. Obviously there is some bias towards knowing how to place gear well.

the scenarios I use is say you are rapping/escaping a route and you get to the end of the rope and there is no anchor. Scenario A you have one random bolt on a sea of slab, scenario B the slab opens up just enough for a singular perfect #1 placement. Which one would you rather use to get down?

I'll take B almost every time, even if it means losing the cam

Certainly a quality bolt placement that's not old as Moses or corroded is better than a bomber cam placement in solid rock.  However, on occasion, human beings have been known to embellish or metaphorically state that X piece of gear is "better than a bolt".  This doesn't mean they really think this (although this may be true in this case, it's hard for any of us but the OP to determine because none of us were there to observe context when this was said), it just means that the gear can be trusted, because it's "better than a bolt".  It's a metaphorical way of saying that the gear is solid because there is a not unfounded typical belief that bolts are solid. 

In fact, West Virginia's own beloved guidebook author and prolific first ascensionist Mike Williams has at least once demonstrated this literary device usage when describing not a cam placement but a stopper placement on a popular 11c gear route at one of the main crags in the New River Gorge:

Just a little food for thought.

Matthew Bakerwrote:

Recently overheard at the climbing gym. My initial response was to interject but i withheld. In My opinion, cams are definitely strong enough to take solid falls when placed correctly, but I couldn’t help but reject this person’s statement in my mind.
thoughts?

All it means is that when you place a cam you know how good it is, you probably don't know who placed the bolt so you don't know how good it is. 

People enjoy a feeling of control. The same dynamic explains why most people are far less comfortable on takeoff in a 737 than merging onto a chaotic interstate at 75mph.

You can take the well placed cam with you when you're done, and reuse it again on the next pitch.

Tradibanwrote:

All it means is that when you place a cam you know how good it is, you probably don't know who placed the bolt so you don't know how good it is. 

The numerous reports of "Climber fell, ripping several pieces..." and "the cams must have broke, because they were placed perfectly" would argue otherwise.

Not so sure about cams but I'd definitely trust a well placed nut in solid rock way more than a bolt of unknown origin.  

M Mwrote:

the scenarios I use is say you are rapping/escaping a route and you get to the end of the rope and there is no anchor. Scenario A you have one random bolt on a sea of slab, scenario B the slab opens up just enough for a singular perfect #1 placement. Which one would you rather use to get down?

I'll take B almost every time, even if it means losing the cam

in Scenario A am I placing the bolt?  Then I choose the bolt.

in Scenario B did I find a pre-placed, fixed cam, or did I place it myself?  If pre-placed, maybe it's easier to inspect than a pre-placed bolt.  Not sure about this one.

Cherokee Nuneswrote:

You can take the well placed cam with you when you're done, and reuse it again on the next pitch.

I only reuse cams a couple times. I think it's too risky to trust a cam used more than a few days. 

I got the address of a guy here that I send them over to be properly disposed of. Probably has saved my life countless times. 

Bomber nut, yes. As mentioned, you know the history of the piece and you’re not trusting the competence of the person who placed the bolt. The mechanism is the same (passive wedge in a constriction) and both should be as good as the rock.
Cam less so. I remember reading (many years ago) that Lowe tested all cramming units on the market at the time (including their own) and found that they would fail up to 50% of the time ‘in less than optimum placements’. Having seen many head slapping cam placements that were ‘bomber’ I don’t think many climbers understand what an optimum placement is. This seems to be especially true for newer climbers who seem to think that any cam is ’bomber’ if they can get it to stay in the rock. I also remember an engineer at one of the cam manufacturer, Metolius I think, that admitted that in their testing a small percentage of placements would fail for reasons they sometimes couldn’t even determine. I think there was a thread on that on MP.

Plus, any system with moving parts will inherently be less reliable than one that has none.

Are you sure you didn’t mishear them say “tricam”? 

Long Rangerwrote:

I only reuse cams a couple times. I think it's too risky to trust a cam used more than a few days. 

I got the address of a guy here that I send them over to be properly disposed of. Probably has saved my life countless times. 

 

+1 for ethical and eco-friendly cam disposal. 

“Well Placed” is the key.  I’ll take a well placed cam at the roof crux over a poorly placed bolt 6 ft behind/under the roof crux any day!   

Pete Swrote:

“Well Placed” is the key.  I’ll take a well placed cam at the roof crux over a poorly placed bolt 6 ft behind/under the roof crux any day!   

i think the intent of the OP's question is "well placed" meaning the quality of the placement, not the relative location on the route.

if both locations were identical, i'd take the bolt any day of the week... statistically speaking, there have been unquestionably more accidents due to pro pulling than bolts failing.

You can argue the nuances of this statement indefinitely but I guarantee you that whoever said this at your gym doesn't know what they are talking about.