Quad Anchor with Two Dyneema Slings

Getting back into climbing, and was doing some more research on building anchors for Top-Roping/Multipitch, and cam across this article: Quad Anchor with two 120 cm slings. They describe the process of tying two dyneema, or nylon slings together to form a quad like so:

I'd never seen this technique and am interested in it, as I'd rather just carry two slings instead of a cordelette. 

Anyone have any experience using this setup? As far as I can tell, it seems super good enough.

Just use 1 sling and its plenty bomber

I think one sling is plenty strong as well, but it’s a good idea to retie the knot regularly to spread out the wear and tear.

Good to go though you're tying knots in dyneema which isn't optimal.  Better to use two of these aramid slings from Edelrid.  Light and more resistant to abrasion.  https://edelrid.com/de-en/professional/anchor-devices-shop/aramid-cord-sling-6mm-V10

1. Ugh, the quad. It’s stupid.

2. Jay, that doesn’t apply to this application.

3. Don’t do this with ONE 120cm dyneema sling, that’s not an anchor. Saw that on my last red rocks trip and everyone else at the belay was in love with the cute half-quad.

EDIT 4. Mark H/ Taylor, you’re not adding the second for strength, you’re adding for redundancy. 3 strands v 1. Sounds like you’ve not thought about this or don’t understand the quad.

I use one super long dyneema sling doubled over and tied in a quad. 

Relevant bits from the AMGA SPI manual:

A single sling is fine and redundant according to the AMGA, and I find them to generally be pretty conservative in their recommendations: 

You have many options here which are fine. I think it's more to due with preference than safety with all of these. For top roping applications these are all super good enough. 

Tom Shermanwrote:

2. Jay, that doesn’t apply to this application.

Tom, yes I understand that.  I pointed it out because it is not a great habit to get into.

I like the quad in a single pitch environment.

1 biner on 1 bolt - clove your rope into it - locker optional.  

Your autoblock goes on the other bolt, the better one if different - overhand your lead rope into this locker as well - in case either bolt fails (lol).  Done in 20 seconds or less - and no fucking around with a bunch of noob bullshit and gear you don’t need.  

The second-to-be-leader rests on the autoblock (overhand on brake side tied quickly as backup/stopper knot) w/o any other attachment to anchor, certainly not a PAS.  

Rack is exchanged and leader is put on belay with a gri gri the second brought up by threading the brake side of the autoblock.  Autoblock is cleaned and racked by leader and replaced with a draw at the bolt as they start climbing.

Ricky Harlinewrote:

Relevant bits from the AMGA SPI manual:

A single sling is fine and redundant according to the AMGA, and I find them to generally be pretty conservative in their recommendations: 

You have many options here which are fine. I think it's more to due with preference than safety with all of these. For top roping applications these are all super good enough. 

Ricky, the text below the last image literally says the red sling is not redundant. The second image also says the sliding-x with two slings is redundant. No one trained by the AMGA would believe that a single sling is redundant. 

To go back to the initial topic: Does it work? yes. Is it the best solution? probably not, unless you really really really want a quad and don't have a 180cm or 240cm sling. You're probably better off just tying a pre-equalized anchor with one of the double lengths. In my experience, the benefit of the quad is the speed you can set it up. Pre-tie them on the ground and slam them on every station. Just buy two 180cm slings and make actual quads instead of jerry rigging something.

Adam Flemingwrote:

Ricky, the text below the last image literally says the red sling is not redundant. The second image also says the sliding-x with two slings is redundant. No one trained by the AMGA would believe that a single sling is redundant. 

To go back to the initial topic: Does it work? yes. Is it the best solution? probably not, unless you really really really want a quad and don't have a 180cm or 240cm sling. You're probably better off just tying a pre-equalized anchor with one of the double lengths. In my experience, the benefit of the quad is the speed you can set it up. Pre-tie them on the ground and slam them on every station. Just buy two 180cm slings and make actual quads instead of jerry rigging something.

The reason for the green sling in the picture according to the book is because they used 1/2" cams and with smaller cams they determine it necessary to use two instead of one. The redundancy in this system as explained by the book is not to do with the green sling but rather with the purple one. To further make my point:

Note the wording. The sling itself is redundant says the AMGA.

Also, just think about it: one side gets cut and what will happen? Well in the above photo if it's the wrong side you lose your anchor. In the example with the purple sling what would happen? Well the carabiners would be stopped by the limiter knots if either side were to get cut or fail. How is that not redundant?

James Wwrote:

1 biner on 1 bolt - clove your rope into it - locker optional.  

Your autoblock goes on the other bolt, the better one if different - overhand your lead rope into this locker as well - in case either bolt fails (lol).  Done in 20 seconds or less - and no fucking around with a bunch of noob bullshit and gear you don’t need.  

The second-to-be-leader rests on the autoblock (overhand on brake side tied quickly as backup/stopper knot) w/o any other attachment to anchor, certainly not a PAS.  

Rack is exchanged and leader is put on belay with a gri gri the second brought up by threading the brake side of the autoblock.  Autoblock is cleaned and racked by leader and replaced with a draw at the bolt as they start climbing.

This. This. This. Why are people obsessed with carrying more stuff that also slows you down?

Potentially relevant thread/argument here….

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/122289680/single-not-doubled-up-quad-anchor

Tom Shermanwrote:

EDIT 4. Mark H/ Taylor, you’re not adding the second for strength, you’re adding for redundancy. 3 strands v 1. Sounds like you’ve not thought about this or don’t understand the quad.

Our point—or at least mine—is that a single dyneema sling is strong enough that redundancy isn’t necessary. I originally wasn’t a big fan of the quad, but they have their time and place. I like them on multi-pitch routes with two-bolt anchors. I use the 180cm sling pre-tied as espoused on Alpine Savvy’s site. It’s fast, efficient and safe.

Ricky, very interesting first image you shared. That is exactly the anchor that I’m referring to. I find it extremely curious that this is right out of the book and that the person I met implementing it was an SPI-testee.

IMO, that anchor is completely unacceptable for multi pitch use, AKA a belay station.

I can now see, that when setup in this very specific way, with no mistakes, that it is acceptable as a top-rope anchor. I’m not sure why anyone would invent or teach a top rope specific anchor, but here we are.

To elaborate, in a multi pitch situation, both individuals and if implementing a top anchor belay (modern std.), their biners are forced to be on a single strand. If you clip both strands you also risk total failure if any one side is lost. TDLR you need to attach everyone, everything to this anchor with two biners to be actually redundant.

I’m not a scaredy cat of the what-ifs of climbing… but trying to put a PSA out, that if you’re choosing to build an anchor, you should probably choose one that’s superior… and many many anchors are both superior and easier to tie than the single sling quad. -Thanks for posting that image.

To add Mark H, I had a thought that might be what you were getting at, but then the poster above as well.. wasn’t sure…

Is there a 180cm sling? I know the 120cm won’t make a true quad and results in the image shared by Ricky. But yeah, 180cm or 240cm, whatever, single sling, ACTUAL QUAD, a-ok. But that’s explicitly not made from a 120cm sling and explicitly not what is shared in that first AMGA photo.

James Wwrote:

1 biner on 1 bolt - clove your rope into it - locker optional.  

Your autoblock goes on the other bolt, the better one if different - overhand your lead rope into this locker as well - in case either bolt fails (lol).  Done in 20 seconds or less - and no fucking around with a bunch of noob bullshit and gear you don’t need.  

The second-to-be-leader rests on the autoblock (overhand on brake side tied quickly as backup/stopper knot) w/o any other attachment to anchor, certainly not a PAS.  

Rack is exchanged and leader is put on belay with a gri gri the second brought up by threading the brake side of the autoblock.  Autoblock is cleaned and racked by leader and replaced with a draw at the bolt as they start climbing.

This is a great method and I use it a lot- but what about if you aren't swapping leads? Seems then a quad is a good option, eh? 

Ira OMCwrote:

This is a great method and I use it a lot- but what about if you aren't swapping leads? Seems then a quad is a good option, eh? 

Whatever monkeying around you’re doing with that pictured setup could also be accomplished by deleting the upper biners and slings and just attaching the 2 pear lockers to the bolts.  

I'm going to come out of the closet here and say I like the quad for bolted anchors.

For TR:

• Actually as far as I am concerned, 2 inversed & opposed quickdraws are all one really need. However some people feel less comfortable on that. It's not that hard to just bring up a quad with me & put them on that instead

For multis:

• If it's bolted and the belays are hanging, I like it because it's the least jumbly anchors that I know of. You clip onto 2 stands, the 2nd clips onto the other 2. One person moving around doesn't have to move the whole anchors.

Tom Shermanwrote:

To add Mark H, I had a thought that might be what you were getting at, but then the poster above as well.. wasn’t sure…

Is there a 180cm sling? I know the 120cm won’t make a true quad and results in the image shared by Ricky. But yeah, 180cm or 240cm, whatever, single sling, ACTUAL QUAD, a-ok. But that’s explicitly not made from a 120cm sling and explicitly not what is shared in that first AMGA photo.

I understand what I’m talking about isn’t what the poster shared. I’m saying that it can be simplified with one less sling, and a 180cm is a great size.

Alpine Savvy article

On the bottom of the article, four different 180cm slings from four different manufacturers are linked. I personally use the Petzl Pur Anneau

I’ve never used the system that James W described above, but I like the concept of it when swinging leads. But if you aren’t swinging and/or don’t like to carry Grigris on multi-pitch routes (like me), I think it has significant pitfalls. Also, the mini quad I sometimes carry is much lighter than a Grigri. I know guides love to use the Grigri on multis and I suspect that is because they’re lowering clients much more frequently than a party of two experienced climbers does. I use a Reverso in auto-block mode 99% of the time when bringing up a second. The Reverso is much lighter, vastly more versatile (ie double ropes, rappelling), and it has the important added benefit of no cam that can be blocked in the open position. I can still lower with the Reverso with a system that takes roughly 10 seconds to build; I only have to do that once every several years.

The bottom line is this: I have gotten away from statements like “[This system/piece of gear] is stupid” because many of them have their time and place, even if it is niche.

In this case, I think the mini-quad’s niche is multi-pitch routes with bolted anchors. With it pre-tied, I literally have an equalized, redundant anchor in five seconds. As is often the case, you rappel multis with bolted anchors. On the way down, I clip the quad to the hangers, and both climbers have an anchor that a) connects both bolts & b) is out of the way of the chains/rings/quick links where you’re feeding your rap line.

This is what I carry. The lockers could easily be swapped for non-lockers if you’re keen on saving a few grams. But just because a ‘biner can be locked doesn’t mean that I always lock them either.