The latest, greatest 2:1 hauling kit

Fuck, who's the MP big wall tribunal once 2 people declare opposing info as fact? Hudon. Middendorf. And.....,?

Rpropswrote:

Fuck, who's the MP big wall tribunal once 2 people declare opposing info as fact? Hudon. Middendorf. And.....,?

Chongo?

jcs

Peter Zabrokwrote:

Furthermore, if you are using a 2:1 on dynamic rope, you are really shooting yourself in the foot regarding efficiency. The 2:1 hauling ratchet simply does not work well on dynamic rope. It works; it just doesn't work well. This is not big wall theory, this is big wall fact.

This statement is hard to understand- since in a 2:1 you are actually involving the haul line less than in a 1:1 PCP scenario.. the Zed Cord does all the work in a 2:1 the haul line just moves up as the Zed pulls..

^^ Yes, that is the reason. 

"This idea came after watching my buddy move the bags, and he'd move it up 6 inches, then it would drop 1 inch... I don't know what he was actually doing up at the anchor"

Was he hauling with a dynamic rope?

Don't take my word for it. Try it yourself. 

Assemble a heavy load, too heavy for 1:1.  First, use your 2:1 to haul it with a dynamic rope. Lower it down, and then haul again with a static rope. 

I'll bet anyone here a beer the difference between hauling with static vs. dynamic is both tangible and significant.  

Prove me wrong and collect your beer. ;)

abandon moderation wrote:

I asked about dynamic rope based on the idea that I'm putting slack in the rope between the microtrax and the rope grab on every pull, so theoretically that short section is stretching and causing inefficiency on each reset. That length is usually really short so... I don't know how much it realistically matters.

This idea came after watching my buddy move the bags, and he'd move it up 6 inches, then it would drop 1 inch... I don't know what he was actually doing up at the anchor.

That short bit of dynamic rope moving through the 2:1 is not going to account for losing 1" each time. If I saw 1" of stretch for every 6" of movement on the line, I'd never haul with a dynamic rope again.

I've seen that kind of issue come up while teaching people how to haul with the 2:1. It has to do with how they're setting themselves up to pull the slack through the microtrax. People will pull in a direction that is comfortable to them based upon their body position with the anchor without considering the angle of the microtrax as it relates to the haul line being pulled up. Thus, the hauling climber who pulls the slack through the microtrax out and to the right without ensuring that they take in the extra slack to bring the microtrax back into line with the haul line before resetting the hauling cycle, will create that 1" or so drop in the haul line when the weight goes onto the microtrax so that the hauling climber can reset the hauling cycle. 

Not part of the big wall tribunal.... but my understanding would be that the only part of the system that would stretch (at least once the bags are moving) would be the section from the lower ascender on the 2:1 to the Main Haul line PCP, which when set up right should only a 10-20 inches? The remainder of the line has already stretched to "max" (assuming no friction on walls edges yadda yadda) so any additional loss would just be inherit loss from transfering the actual load from the 2:1 to the PCP. 

abandon moderation wrote:

In theory even the taut haul line is stretching because you're bouncing the bags (even without friction, if the bags are 100lbs, you need to apply more than 100lbs of force to move them). That might fall under friction/yadda yadda though. Maybe the bounce isn't losing energy either, my physics isn't great.

The part I don't get is that most people seemed to accept the greater efficiency of a wire draw over a dyneema sling. Why concern yourself about the difference between a few inches of dyneema vs wire, but then ignore the stretch in dynamic rope? I'm scratching my head over that.

I think a loop from a Metolius PAS loop would make a great replacement for the wire for this reason. 

abandon moderation wrote:

The part I don't get is that most people seemed to accept the greater efficiency of a wire draw over a dyneema sling. Why concern yourself about the difference between a few inches of dyneema vs wire, but then ignore the stretch in dynamic rope? I'm scratching my head over that.

The wire draw isn't considered more efficient in abstract over a dyneena sling, it's more about getting the pcp into the perfect position in relation to the rest of the system. A shortie dyneena loop still needs to be doubled and is sliiiiightly less able to twist and isn't always in the absolute best spot. Admittedly, it's not a concern if you only have a dyneena sling, but if you have both then going with the wire draw makes  sense. 

The loop from a PAS would work fine. 

But both the dyneena sling and the wire draw are much better than a biner-only as it can't twist to accept the differing angles between the hand pull and the haul line. 

Any reason why a dedicated pulley (petzl partner, camp tethys pro) is more efficient than a micro trax as a pulley? I used a 2:1 with micro trax as both the top and bottom pulleys (locked open so the teeth dont engage) on a couple walls last year. I am wondering if swapping out the micros for a dedicated pulley is worth the extra $$$ for the pulleys? (I already had the extra micros laying around, that is why I used them in the first place)

spec wise, the micro trax appears very similar to the petzl partner (90% efficiency, sealed ball bearing), but curious if any have experience with other factors that would give the advantage to a dedicated pulley (orientation, clip-in point, etc)

Ryan Rexwrote:

Any reason why a dedicated pulley (petzl partner, camp tethys pro) is more efficient than a micro trax as a pulley? I used a 2:1 with micro trax as both the top and bottom pulleys (locked open so the teeth dont engage) on a couple walls last year. I am wondering if swapping out the micros for a dedicated pulley is worth the extra $$$ for the pulleys? (I already had the extra micros laying around, that is why I used them in the first place)

spec wise, the micro trax appears very similar to the petzl partner (90% efficiency, sealed ball bearing), but curious if any have experience with other factors that would give the advantage to a dedicated pulley (orientation, clip-in point, etc)

I guess the main disadvantage is the annoyance of having the teeth accidentally engage every time something lightly bumps the button.

A less important downside is that the swing-gate pulleys allow you to use just about any carabiner.  The microtraxion and other fixed-wing pulleys really work best with oval or HMS carabiners.

Regardless of components used, you need to WHIP that haul line thru the PCP. That's the only reason I can think of why the bags would sag back down substantially.

Source: Never climbed el cap but I have hauled no fewer than three of my friends up various boulders at Mt Woodson. Humanoid type loads do not appreciate any slack in the system, so you can trust me on this one.

jt newgardwrote:

Regardless of components used, you need to WHIP that haul line thru the PCP. That's the only reason I can think of why the bags would sag back down substantially.

Source: Never climbed el cap but I have hauled no fewer than three of my friends up various boulders at Mt Woodson. Humanoid type loads do not appreciate any slack in the system, so you can trust me on this one.

Well that's one of the rarer merit badges.

jt newgardwrote:

Humanoid type loads do not appreciate any slack in the system, so you can trust me on this one.

Man would that pucker ya up!!!  

Due to the incredible efficiency of the 2:1 ratchet, I believe bailing off a route due to complain-y partners will be a thing of the past. Just clip their sorry butt to the bags and up you go!

haha ..... dang  .... yeah not a recommended technique. However, a gumby has to practice somehow and it's easier than hauling rocks up the trail. It was so easy to haul a 160 lb human with the 2:1 ! Maybe next time I can have my partner flop around and get stuck on an overhang just like a real bag !

I believe I've read every page of this post and thought I'd cobble together a system with the parts and cord I have on hand, just in case I need to haul a body up a thing.. I'm still discussing larger objectives with a couple partners, but that'll be a while, so learning what I can. Anyway, this setup worked pretty well, thanks to decent pulleys that are part of my crevasse kit. I ordered a micro traxion and I'll swap the 7mm accessory cord for something more static - those are my next changes. My test was to haul a Miata transmission up about 15-18ft to my anchor up in our carport rafters and it was surprisingly easy. My question is opinions on whether the titan cord can take some decent abuse here. It seems like an OK option for a time and didn't get in my way, but I'm questioning myself. Thanks!

That titan cord should be fine.  Just keep an eye on the spot where the pulley rubs on it; if you're seeing sheath wear then rotate the cord a bit so the pulley sits on a fresh spot.

I use 5mm titan cord for my zed cord and it holds up just fine... except for the time my new-to-bigwall partner rigged it in a way that the zed cord was sawing over a sandstone edge with every stroke.  In that application it stripped the sheath off fairly quickly, haha.

Sam Skovgaardwrote:

I use 5mm titan cord for my zed cord and it holds up just fine...

This helps too, thanks. I was considering some of the other static lines noted back in this thread and sticking with known-to-me material suits me just fine. Ordered some melon color titan for contrast. I do pretty well at looking over gear before/after using. A few years ago, I started wrapping a layer or two of climbing tape on a new webbing & cord loops where they rub. I will do that with these as well, since it seems to give me a little more obvious indicator of the beginning of wear. Unwrap, look closer, replace loop or retape as needed.

Mark Hudonwrote:  Skot Richards and I just climbed Aurora on El Cap and we used his hauling kit shown in the photo.

It is totally da bomb!

The Z cord is some beef, totally no stretch spectra type stuff that Skot found and the whole  kit is not heavy it all.

If you need to put together a 2:1 kit, simply enlarge this photo to see specifically what the units are and go buy them. Don’t try to reinvent the wheel or be cheap. Skot and I have been working on the 2:1 kit for years and you will simply not make any significant improvements to it at this point.

Post #1

Followed by 15 pages of people doing it differently 

This thread’s been unusually constructive, lots of learning going on, at least one legit question raised about the original kit, and some cool alternatives presented. The first post was awesome, but I’m a fan of the following 15 pages, too.