Are Colorado grades soft?

Let's settle this debate, are Colorado's grades soft. I feel like it depends, places like Boulder Canyon may have some soft routes like Free fall - 5.12a and Joint venture - 5.11a, There are also places like Eldorado Canyon with old school sandbags, after leading a route there, maybe its 5.8 like Reggae, I thought to myself, this would be 10a in Boulder Canyon. I've had friends shut down sends I have done because Colorado it soft so 12a is really 11c. Let me know what you guys think!

Imo, some areas are soft, some are sandbagged. I don’t think it makes any sense to make a generalization like this about an entire state. Like anywhere, it probably depends a lot on when an area was developed. Trad lines from the 60s - probably sandbagged. Sport climbs put up in the 2000s - probably soft. 

I'd say the Boulder area is generally a bit soft. I joke that I'm a 5.11 climber in Clear Creek, a 5.10 climber in Boulder Canyon, a 5.9 climber in Eldo and a 5.8 climber in the park - it's a joke but there's an element of truth to it. I moved out here from New England and climbed a lot in North Conway, the Gunks and CT Traprock; I would say all those areas have stiffer grades than Boulder. I haven't climbed that much in CA, but when I go to Yosemite or Josh I have to lower my sights a little. Lover's Leap seems more in line with Boulder. At City of Rocks I find the trad grades stiff and the sport grades about on par with the routes around here. 

Elsewhere in Colorado I don't know what to say, Rifle is supposed to be sandbaggy and I've never heard anyone complain that the routes on the Diamond are soft!

One of the big challenges with comparing grades is that we shouldn't mix trad and sport comparisons, I've actually come to believe that it would make sense to keep the YDS for trad grades and use the euro system for Sport. I don't know what to do with mixed routes though! 

A routes firmness stems from the people who climb them.

Moshe! Good to see you here! I recently felt horrendous on Green Spur and C'est la Vie...so there's that...

Yes

Clear Creek Canyon and Boulder Canyon are both similar and soft with their sport and trad routes. The South Platte and Eldo are never called soft. I think grades really work best within one area.

This is a debate that will never be settled.  So why try?

Gumby Kingwrote:

This is a debate that will never be settled.  So why try?

If we applied this logic to MP as a whole we'd have to get rid of like half of all threads. Isn't this what MP does best?

Cory Nwrote:

Yes

Clear Creek Canyon and Boulder Canyon are both similar and soft with their sport and trad routes. The South Platte and Eldo are never called soft. I think grades really work best within one area.

Yes maybe for new school trad routes, but some of the things on happy hour crag and the elephant buttresses who’s fa was Kor and others it can be a little heady, even the owl on the dome I felt was a bit…. Interesting.

I would encourage anyone that generalizes Colorado as soft to spend more time in the Platte, RMNP and the Black. 

Then take a trip out to Red Rocks. 

Ricky Harlinewrote:

If we applied this logic to MP as a whole we'd have to get rid of like half of all threads. Isn't this what MP does best?

This is the only purpose the Puppy Lover has :-/

I think CCC/BoCan is pretty soft at the lower sport grades in comparison to other places but it feels like everywhere I climb has been coalescing around the 5.11/12 grade and difficulty just becomes differences in style (though there are still some notably soft/sandbagged locations - Red Rock as an example of a place that still felt soft at the more intermediate grades). CCC/BoCan often have routes in which there is pretty easy climbing to a crux to easy climbing while a place like RRG may be more sustained and have few opportunities for rests on many of the routes, but easier individual moves overall. Similarly, experience on rock type matters. I find that I climb similar grades on anywhere there's granite, regardless if it's the BoCan, SPlatte, Devil's Head, Yosemite, or the Sierras - even though they're different types of granite. 

Grades don't really matter that much anyways - don't have eyes too large for your fingers on your trips and instead just climb what looks fun - but my overall statement is that generalizing a whole state is a fruitless endeavor and that it's largely going to be dependent on your ideal climbing style.

Unaweep will ruin your day if you're looking to tick hard grades though

CCC is Softer than BOCAN.  

Sam Chalkleywrote:

I would encourage anyone that generalizes Colorado as soft to spend more time in the Platte, RMNP and the Black. 

Then take a trip out to Red Rocks. 

It’s almost like easy access, no commitment climbing brings out the softy in all of us, everywhere. Vacation grades are a thing.

Sam Chalkleywrote:

I would encourage anyone that generalizes Colorado as soft to spend more time in the Platte, RMNP and the Black. 

Then take a trip out to Red Rocks. 

Take a trip to Red Rock and only climb routes put up in the 70s by Joe Herbst or 80s routes from Paul Van Betten, Richard Harrison, Jay Smith, and others like them. Don't think you would come back from that saying Red Rock is soft.

Cory Nwrote:

Yes

Clear Creek Canyon and Boulder Canyon are both similar and soft with their sport and trad routes. The South Platte and Eldo are never called soft. I think grades really work best within one area.

Hmm, I wonder how many people have ever climbed a CCC trad route, and also what are those soft BoCan trad routes?  I'm sure there are some soft BoCan routes, but I don't think most people who are familiar with the more popular trad routes in BoCan would describe them as soft--they're very much consistent with other "old school" standards, and, not surprisingly, very consistent with Eldo grades.

Pretty much every place you go will have routes that are on the very soft end and very stiff end. Vedauwoo especially comes to mind as having a very soft route for every extreme sandbag.

i think some of the older bocan trad routes are decently stiff/normal (those slippery fucking 9's at castle rock, crack of desperation, a couple of the routes on bell buttress, etc). i have climbed all over the place, and i think for the most part people greatly exaggerate how stiff their area is.  gunks, jtree, needles, index, etc all seem pretty similar to everywhere else to me.  there might be a couple outliers at the locations (both on the stiff and on the soft sides), but i don't notice major consistent differences.

(kind of curious though about all of the soft routes at vedauwoo. i can think of spectreman, max factor, hung like a horse as being pretty soft, but i can't think of too many others).

slimwrote:

i think some of the older bocan trad routes are decently stiff/normal (those slippery fucking 9's at castle rock, crack of desperation, a couple of the routes on bell buttress, etc). i have climbed all over the place, and i think for the most part people greatly exaggerate how stiff their area is.  gunks, jtree, needles, index, etc all seem pretty similar to everywhere else to me.  there might be a couple outliers at the locations (both on the stiff and on the soft sides), but i don't notice major consistent differences.

(kind of curious though about all of the soft routes at vedauwoo. i can think of spectreman, max factor, hung like a horse as being pretty soft, but i can't think of too many others).

First pitch of captain nemo may be a bit soft for the area but its an amazing pitch

it definitely depends on the area.  I would agree that BoCan (sport routes) and CCC can be a bit soft but Eldo, lumpy, RMNP, the platte, and black canyon are solid if not hard for the grade. A lot of Eldo test pieces have even been upgraded and are still stout.  Hard to believe that the Bastille crack used to be 5.6 (in the original guidebook) and "darkness till dawn" was 5.9 just to name a few.  I think you have to do what someone upthread said and gauge it based on the area and when the route was put up.  There are definitely trad routes in boulder canyon that are super stiff.  Basically anything on castle rock, "where eagles dare" and the dome.  Anyone who can climb the umph slot and call it 5.8 is a much better climber than I am.  Sometimes its fun to climb soft grades for an ego boost but it's also fun to get humbled on a sandbag.

All I know is, every time I break into a new grade in the Front Range the pitch/boulder gets downgraded.