Access Has Never Been Endangered From Bolts

I see frequently people say bolts will cause access issues, sometimes yes and sometimes no. This actually has nothing to do with the bolts though. 

Access is endangered by poorly managed relationships:

• Some land managers couldn't care less about the bolts they just want to be left alone. 
• Other land managers don't want anymore people coming to the land they manage so they don't want anymore bolts.
• Other land managers are tasked with preservation and want absolutely no more bolts.
• Some places they actually want more people so they would prefer to have more bolts.

Failing to meet expectations is the actual problem so stop saying squeeze jobs, excessive bolting or three bolt climbs endanger access because the issue is relationships. Most land managers have no idea how many bolts should even be on a climb let alone a wall, their goal is to follow the higher ups guidance on the issue. 

The lack of replies to this thread shall be interpreted as implied agreement to the statements presented by the Princess. 

JCMwrote:

The lack of replies to this thread shall be interpreted as implied agreement to the statements presented by the Princess. 

That is certainly possible, yes. But this thread and the others of a similar nature - reading them is like listening to a very loud weed wacker. So there's that.

Bolts are the catalyst.

Edit: Lol PPL dragged us all in.

JCM it is problematic that universal truths like what I have presented do not stay on the front page! Instead nonsense by a puppy lover stays on the front page.

Kevin DeWeese wrote:

Fify 

How long do I have to go till I earn goat status and can ride off into the sunset? Like how many more threads are you asking for? And do you agree with me?

Tradibanwrote:

Bolts are the catalyst.

Edit: Lol PPL dragged us all in.

Like how human behavior is the best mechnism to fight heart disease but 42 ice cream sandwhiches a week can be a major catalyst?

WF WF51 wrote:

That is certainly possible, yes. But this thread and the others of a similar nature - reading them is like listening to a very loud weed wacker. So there's that.

What type of lawn equipment should I be aiming for? Lawn mower? Leaf blower? Edger?

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

JCM it is problematic that universal truths like what I have presented do not stay on the front page! Instead nonsense by a puppy lover stays on the front page.

How long do I have to go till I earn goat status and can ride off into the sunset? Like how many more threads are you asking for? And do you agree with me?

Like how human behavior is the best mechnism to fight heart disease but 42 ice cream sandwhiches a week can be a major catalyst?

What type of lawn equipment should I be aiming for? Lawn mower? Leaf blower? Edger?

It depends on what your definition of "cause" is. You see, bolts draw attention for obvious reasons, mainly they are installations, this enables land managers to intervene in what might otherwise be a legitimate use of the public land.

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

JCM it is problematic that universal truths like what I have presented do not stay on the front page! Instead nonsense by a puppy lover stays on the front page.

How long do I have to go till I earn goat status and can ride off into the sunset? Like how many more threads are you asking for? And do you agree with me?

Like how human behavior is the best mechnism to fight heart disease but 42 ice cream sandwhiches a week can be a major catalyst?

What type of lawn equipment should I be aiming for? Lawn mower? Leaf blower? Edger?

A table saw, or a diving board. The first would be better.

Gum has gotten mintier lately, have you noticed?

You must be totally unfamiliar with the history of climbing in Texas.  We won the issue and built strong relationships with park management today, but it was hard won and much of it centered around bolting.  Hueco still suffers some from it.  As with most broad generalizations, while having some validity only reveals lack of breath and depth of understanding history.  And yes we lost access for periods due directly from bolting.  In Texas’s situation it has been complicated by the two major climbing areas are, a state historical park, Hueco, and a state natural area, Enchanted Rock.

So you're basically saying, "Bolts don't kill access, people kill access!"

Climbers squabbling about bolts is what threatens access

Another area where access has been curtailed as a result of bolting is Zonerland and other areas in the Superstition Mountains in AZ. And this closure was NOT the result of climbers 'squabbling about bolts'.

Not Hobo Greg wrote:

Bighorn national forest in Wyoming (ten sleep) has banned all new route development (including Trad) due to the BS at ten sleep. Just proved ya wrong right there.

As Kevin suggested, it was the bickering and chopping and padlocking (!) that led to the bolting ban.

James Crumpwrote:

You must be totally unfamiliar with the history of climbing in Texas.  We won the issue and built strong relationships with park management today, but it was hard won and much of it centered around bolting.  Hueco still suffers some from it.  As with most broad generalizations, while having some validity only reveals lack of breath and depth of understanding history.  And yes we lost access for periods due directly from bolting.  In Texas’s situation it has been complicated by the two major climbing areas are, a state historical park, Hueco, and a state natural area, Enchanted Rock.

What you are saying is that people don't understand the complex relationships needed to navigate whether bolts could be placed or not? If someone went out to Hueco and placed a bolt in a piece of talus on the ground would climbing get shut down? Or is it only if someone places bolts for a sport climb?

The tensleep situation seems to be a relationship situation. Of all the issues Louie had, the actual placement of the bolts seemed to be a lower concern to the route manufacturing. Developers in Tensleep decided not to behave in accordance with the establish relationship with land managers.

Edit: James I don't know what to tell you. Your describe a situation similar to what I describe in the OP yet you reach the less logical conclusion. You quite literally said, "built strong relationships." Seems like you are the one trolling.  

Kevin DeWeese wrote:

No. No. and No.

Your anti developing relationships with land managers?

Troll

James Crumpwrote:

Troll

x10

Tradibanwrote:

It depends on what your definition of "cause" is. You see, bolts draw attention for obvious reasons, mainly they are installations, this enables land managers to intervene in what might otherwise be a legitimate use of the public land.

But if someone has a clear relationship with the land manager there is no intervention needed, since they would already be acting in accordance. 

James Crumpwrote:

Troll

You wrote a whole paragraph that agrees with me and reached a different conclusion. 

Randy wrote:

x10

He got me good!

Castle Rock State Park in the Santa Cruz mountains has been in a pretty serious danger of having climbing closed down for pretty much the entire time there has been climbing there. Compromises have been made and one of the larger areas has actually been entirely closed off, but this happened long enough ago that most people don't even know it's there, but the closed area sits between two of the most popular crags but isn't visible from either of them, so it's like this weird Atlantis only known to old timers and people like me that are interested in climbing history and old guidebooks.

One of the key issues affecting access at CRSP is bolting. I cannot state how common this problem is, but there is at least one location where close management of route maintenance, good relationships with land managers, and good behavior of climbers are absolutely critical to the continued access of climbing. I think sometimes people freak out unnecessarily about bolting, say, in national forest where bolting is explicitly allowed, but it can definitely be a real issue and that shouldn't be overlooked or ignored.

Kevin Worrallwrote:

Climbers squabbling about bolts is what threatens access

You can make an argument for the bolts causing the squabble as well. Overall, if there weren’t for installation of bolts….or bolts at all, their wouldn’t be any access issues. To me, that seems like many could very easily view that as bolts causing/creating the issues.

As far as the TS goes, I lean more towards the manufacturing of holds is what caused the access issues, but can definitely see why people interpret it as bolts being the reason. 

Climbing itself as a modern sport, via high quality traditional protection, and bolts has created an environment where people with practical zero skills or knowledge can go out and have fun, specifically in environments that used to be an objective risk to life for anyone who pursued it. Id say anyone who argues that bolts should be banned for "the access issues they cause", should also be in favor of banning modern traditional gear... like all SLCD's, ball nuts, tricams, etc. These devices should be banned too if "bolts are the problem". Tradi- you should get out ahead of this before Totem's patent expires and every brand can make futuristic, near perfect cams and ruins every area in the country. 

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

I see frequently people say bolts will cause access issues, sometimes yes and sometimes no. This actually has nothing to do with the bolts though. 

Huh? Didn’t you just say sometimes yes?

Access is endangered by poorly managed relationships:

• Some land managers couldn't care less about the bolts they just want to be left alone. 

• Other land managers don't want anymore people coming to the land they manage so they don't want anymore bolts.

• Other land managers are tasked with preservation and want absolutely no more bolts.

• Some places they actually want more people so they would prefer to have more bolts.

Failing to meet expectations is the actual problem so stop saying squeeze jobs excessive bolting or three bolt climbs endanger access because the issue is relationships.

Overall you bring up lots of good points, but very little has to do with bolts in my interpretation. Most of what you say has to do with land ownership…which is ultimately who determines if something is an access issue or not...but what you are saying is too broad imo. When access issues arise they are almost 100% due to one thing and can’t be covered in a blanket statement. I think it’s important to note what is the root of any access issues is in any specific scenario. This is even more important with the increasing popularity of climbing.