How to intentionally break a GriGri's spring?

I own a few GriGris. I am considering modify a retired one to completely deactivate its cam's spring. I own a GriGri Plus, so I already know that in top rope mode there's very litte spring, but I want to see if no spring at all is possible. I want to do it on the GriGri III/2019 because it has the widest rope range.
Has anyone ever done this or have any ideas how I might get at the spring to disable it by unhooking it or snipping it?

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Anyone thinking of modifying their Gri Gri should check their warranty. I am not recommending any modification. My interest is experimental only, about ideas, and my experiments are on retired equipment.

I machined the centre pin out and replaced it with a new one, the alternative is to cut out the dimple in the side plate which the spring engages into, it's up by the rope/hand symbol. That's on the original ones, the newer models no idea.

Jim Tittwrote:

I machined the centre pin out and replaced it with a new one, the alternative is to cut out the dimple in the side plate which the spring engages into, it's up by the rope/hand symbol. That's on the original ones, the newer models no idea.

Thanks for this.

The 2019 GriGri has a completely different geometry, inside and out. It will be complete guess work where the recess for the torsion spring will be. Unless someone out there has a broken GriGri and can say where the recess is?

It's called a Petzl Grillon.

Essentially, it is a Gri Gri, but without a spring.

JCS

The recess is internal but you can see where it was pressed in by looking for a faintly raised area in the sideplate.

I got some new pins through a contact at Petzl, making a new one would have been easy enough but as we knew one of the techies it was easier to ask him. We never got as far as working out what material to use.

As above, just buy a Grillon.

Noel Z wrote:

I had the old Grillon. It shared the same parts (body and cam) as the first GriGri. Recreational climbing ropes have become thinner and the newest GriGri can handle ropes down to 8.5mm. The new Grillon maybe new, but it still needs to handle the same industrial diameter ropes, circa >10.5mm. I'm guessing that the newest Grillon and GriGri are not cammed the same at all. I don't have the newest Grillon so can't be sure. If you have a new Grillon, I'd be grateful for a few pics. of the cam.

I'm aware that the Madrock Lifeguard comes in an unsprung Safeguard version, but I live in the EU and can't get it here.

Sorry Noel, I have the old version of the Grillon as well.

i can't see any reason why you'd want such a device without a spring when rappelling or top-roping. imo, one would want such a feature when indulging in these activities as is keeps a constant 'grab' on the rope. I only used the Grillion for positioning as well as lowering light weight items where the Gri Gri would fail.

i must be missing something.

jcs

I have disabled the spring on a GG3 in a somewhat more crude way. I removed the screw on the plastic cover and then took a Dremel tool and tiny grinding disc and cut most of the way through the plastic cover so it could be removed from the axle. With that off, it reveals the end of the tension spring sticking up through the body of the Grigri. I then took an 1/8" carbide ball bit in a Dremel tool and slowly ground the end of the tension spring off. At a point when the bit is getting most of the way through the spring, the end of the end will break off (and go flying - wear protective eye wear!) and the tension of the spring inside is released. The end result is shown below. In this state it functions exactly like a Grillon. I used for lead solo in that configuration for a while when I was still rope soloing. It had to be held vertically with a sling/chest harness for feeding and will not hold an upside down fall but instantly locks up when it's weighted. It also worked well hanging from the belay loop in the normal fashion for route setting and I still used it for TR belaying and lead belaying though I had to hold down the handle with my thumb while paying out slack. 

I don't have it any longer as I have since passed it on to a friend who is using for cleaning new routes.

This method is not as elegant as machining off the pin (axle) and replacing it with a new one, but it worked for me. YMMV

SICgripswrote:

I have disabled the spring on a GG3 in a somewhat more crude way. I removed the screw on the plastic cover and then took a Dremel tool and tiny grinding disc and cut most of the way through the plastic cover so it could be removed from the axle. With that off, it reveals the end of the tension spring sticking up through the body of the Grigri. I then took an 1/8" carbide ball bit in a Dremel tool and slowly ground the end of the tension spring off. At a point when the bit is getting most of the way through the spring, the end of the end will break off (and go flying - wear protective eye wear!) and the tension of the spring inside is released. The end result is shown below. In this state it functions exactly like a Grillon. I used for lead solo in that configuration for a while when I was still rope soloing. It had to be held vertically with a sling/chest harness for feeding and will not hold an upside down fall but instantly locks up when it's weighted. It also worked well hanging from the belay loop in the normal fashion for route setting and I still used it for TR belaying and lead belaying though I had to hold down the handle with my thumb while paying out slack. 

I don't have it any longer as I have since passed it on to a friend who is using for cleaning new routes.

This method is not as elegant as machining off the pin (axle) and replacing it with a new one, but it worked for me. YMMV

This is exactly what I was looking for. Really, thanks so much.
When I undo the screw and pry up the plastic I can peek inside and see the goldish coloured spring protruding. With the help of your image, I now know where the hole needs to go in the plastic. I'm going to try and keep the plastic. I'll mark where the hole needs to go first, then place a protective shim under the plastic prior to drilling to protect the body from damage. I just need to buy a suitable bit for my Dremmel to grind down the spring. 

The Dremel bit that i used to grind off the end of the spring: https://www.dremel.com/us/en/p/9905-2615009905

The MadRock Safeguard works really well too. I had one of those for a while. Nice and compact, same price as the Lifeguard, though it doesn't lower/rappel as smoothly as the GG IMO.

It's too bad Petzl doesn't sell a naked (without lanyard) Grillon for the same price as a normal GG like MadRock markets the Safeguard vs the Lifeguard. The Grillon price is outrageous.

The Safeguards unavailability might be due to a huge demand for them for deer hunters that are hanging in harnesses waiting for Bambi and his Mom to show up.  They are using them as a rope grab primarily.

SICgripswrote:

The Dremel bit that i used to grind off the end of the spring: https://www.dremel.com/us/en/p/9905-2615009905

I had something like that in mind. With the right bit, I may just be able to get at without any hole by just lifting the plastic. If I end up having to drill the plastic, I'll rotate it so the hold ends up not exposing the inside to sand once rotated back, if that makes sense. What I need is a dentist! 

It's too bad Petzl doesn't sell a naked (without lanyard) Grillon for the same price as a normal GG like MadRock markets the Safeguard vs the Lifeguard. The Grillon price is outrageous.

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A final question SICgrips: the remainder of the cam's spring remains inside the device after the modification. Did you ever feel it could interfere with the cam in a way one wouldn't want?

If you can get at enough of the end of the spring by just rotating and prying the cover to grind it off to release the spring tension (spring unwinds), that would be ideal...but I'm doubtful. Maybe Dremel makes something finer than the small carbide ball bit that I used. It's possible that it might fit in there though.

> A final question SICgrips: the remainder of the cam's spring remains inside the device after the modification. Did you ever feel it could interfere with the cam in a way one wouldn't want?

Short answer - no. There are some fine filings that stay in there but it's never interfered with the function of it in my experience. There's also bit of grease inside that traps and suspends what little there was in mine. 

Brockywrote:

The Safeguards unavailability might be due to a huge demand for them for deer hunters that are hanging in harnesses waiting for Bambi and his Mom to show up.  They are using them as a rope grab primarily.

When I got mine, I ordered directly from MadRock, though that was several years ago.

SICgripswrote:

When I got mine, I ordered directly from MadRock, though that was several years ago.

The average going price was $125-150 a little while ago, not as much of a frenzy, but it’s not hunting season.

SICgripswrote:

Short answer - no. There are some fine filings that stay in there but it's never interfered with the function of it in my experience. 

I have found a possible place for a hole in the cowl. I used a 5mm spur wood bit by hand. The plastic cowl can then be rotated to expose the spring and rotated back when complete. I haven't ground anything off yet. 

Once you completed the mod., did the cam move very freely? The tolerances are quite narrow between all of parts held together by the central pin. Do the low tolerances and uncoiled spring inside cause drag? If you were to shake the modified GG, would the cam rattle easily? If you held it up with a carabiner would the cam drop out/down (to the closed position).

With the Edelrid Eddy, the cam moves very freely, once it not in the resting position. How would the two compare?

Looks good, though it seems like it's going to be tricky to grind off the end of the spring without having easy access all around it. Seems like the small carbide ball bit would be the only thing that might work. However most of the cutting flutes are on the side of the ball as I recall I used the Dremel tool at an angle to grind the end of the spring off. I'm not sure how it would work coming straight down on the end of the spring. Maybe there's other options that I'm not aware of.

> Once you completed the mod., did the cam move very freely?

Yes

> Do the low tolerances and uncoiled spring inside cause drag? 

Just a slight bit but I think it's because of the spring and grease. Really not much at all

> If you were to shake the modified GG, would the cam rattle easily?

Not in mine.

> If you held it up with a carabiner would the cam drop out/down (to the closed position).

Yes

> With the Edelrid Eddy, the cam moves very freely, once it not in the resting position. How would the two compare?

Been a long time since I had an Eddy but I would say that they are equivalent in the ease of rotation of the cam.

A bit off topic but if anyone wants the equivalent to a springless GG (Grillon) and doesn't want to modify a GG or pay the going price for a Grillon, A Trango Vergo is designed from the ground-up without a spring and works wonderful for TR solo, adjustable lanyard, TR belaying; belaying second from the top and lead belaying. I've used it virtually for everything but lead rope solo (it would probably work for that too but I never tried it and would be reticent to trust it). Most of my experience with it has been with ropes in the 9.4-9.6 range. It doesn't have to be modified except for a small loop of cord for a tow loop (this is only necessary for smooth feeding if using for TR solo).

I detailed this in a blog post: https://sicgrips.blogspot.com/2020/08/vergo-for-top-rope-soloing.html

SICgripswrote:

A Trango Vergo is designed from the ground-up without a spring and works wonderful for TR solo, adjustable lanyard, TR belaying; belaying second from the top and lead belaying. 

Thanks for information about the Trango Vergo. I had the Trango predecessor. It scared me once. As I already have a Taz Lov for TRS, I don't need anything similar.

I was gifted a used Bornack Lory Pro (now sold as a Syklotec Lory Pro). It too is springless and works the same as a Grillon. It has a spate of certifications and is extremely well made. It also has safety stop for cases where the belayer panics and gives too much trottle while rappeling, similary to the GG+. It is exactly the same as the Edelridy Eddy, but its cam has no resting (open) position, so lock instant. Even though it is heavy and I don't always carry it, I'd never part with it. It can be bought without a rope, and the compatible rope sizes are published, unlike with the Grillon.

I had a Eddy that I modded by removing the ball and spring so that it was effectively like a Grillon. As you stated it was bomber. However,  I hated how it lowered and the fail-safe mechanism was a PITA, so for me it was a no go.  GG, Vergo, and Taz Lov are all much better at lowering IMO.

SICgripswrote:

I had a Eddy that I modded by removing the ball and spring so that it was effectively like a Grillon. As you stated it was bomber. However,  I hated how it lowered and the fail-safe mechanism was a PITA, so for me it was a no go.  GG, Vergo, and Taz Lov are all much better at lowering IMO.

I know what you mean about lowering with the Eddy. I got used to its narrower sweet spot though. I'm surprised that you say the Vergo lowers well. I didn't expect that judging from the images. With the Eddy, it  feels like the handle is too long and provides too much leverage?

Thanks again for showing me photos of your modified GG. I've been wanting to do this for ages. It would have been great if Petzl went all the way with their GG+'s top rope mode. By "all the way", I mean that the top rope mode should completely de-tension the spring making the cam free moving. Or even better, a GG++++ with several modes (spring tension positions)! I could find a use for that.

Or...even one where the spring could be adjusted from no-spring to stiff spring for paying out slack fast for a fast moving lead climber and everything in between. That way it could be fine tuned by the person using for the task at hand. It isn't going to happen though because of liability and putting to much responsibility on the individual climber.