Seeking feminine help: belay device too high

So my partners belay device ends up by her face when the rope is weighted by climbers or on rappel. Her leg loops bare most of the load while her waist loop rises up her torso.
Is this due to body proportions? Or something having to do with harness fit.
Any female climbers out there experiencing this and have any tips? Cheers!

Impossible to trouble-shoot this without seeing it. Could you share a photo? Even better, could she post and share her first-hand experience? 

Could be poor harness fit, either wearing it incorrectly or just the wrong size or style for her body. Could be a combination of harness rise, belay loop size, and carabiner length all on the slightly longer side of the spectrum while her torso is on the shorter side of average… even her posture when catching falls can contribute to the geometry…  but what you noted about the whole harness riding way up makes me think it’s more likely poor fit.

My harness fits well and I have a longer rise and shorter torso, add in the larger belay loop of my mm caddy and my belay device ends up around sternum height for me. One of several reasons I don’t extend. Near the face isn’t great, but I’d be more concerned about the harness waist not staying at her waist but perhaps riding up onto her diaphragm or ribs. (At least that’s what I’m picturing from your description?) That could be a real safety concern in a hanging rappel or a hard fall. 

Mountain Rodent wrote:

My first thought would be harness fit. Women's harnesses are designed to sit higher on the hips than men's, but depending on her proportions, a men's harness might suit her body better. 

Maybe you work in the industry and have some special insight into this, but I would figure the opposite.   I don't think of harnesses as being designed to sit on the hips at all, the waist belt should sit on the narrowest part of your midsection, which is the (wait for it...) waist.  (Normal) Men's waist to hip ratio is about 0.9 (the waist is a little narrower than the hips).  Remember back when a "harness" was a swami belt of tubular webbing tied around your midsection  - it always was tied around the waist.  Otherwise if you flipped upside down, you could fall out of your harness.   Most women have smaller - sometimes much smaller waists than hips.  Thus, "woman's" harnesses are designed to have a smaller waist relative to leg loop diameter.

  My waist is 29" and my hips are 39".  The only way to get a harness that properly cinches around my waist  and that also fits my hips and legs is to buy a harness with adjustable leg loops.  My impression is that women with straighter figures than mine and longer torsos can more get away with a man's harness or a woman's harness with non-adjustable leg loops.

Irreverent Bastardwrote:

So my partners belay device ends up by her face when the rope is weighted by climbers or on rappel. Her leg loops bare most of the load while her waist loop rises up her torso.

There will always be some movement in the front tie in point under that type of load but it should not be anywhere near that much.  After she gets the proper waist fit (on the waist) and proper leg loop fit - IMHO they should both be snug - not uncomfortably cinched but snug - check to see what's going on with the elastic leg loop attachment in the back, where the leg loops go up to the center point in the back.  

It could be the harness, but it is also possible if the person in question has a very short torso.  If the leg loops are not too big, then it's the rise that matters. (The rise measurement is from crotch to waist.)  It seems to be a matter of conventional wisdom that on average women have a longer rise than men, and this difference in rise is a feature of women's vs. men's harnesses.  But even among women-specific harnesses, there are rise differences.  A good account with illustrative images is at https://www.outdoorgearlab.com/topics/climbing/best-climbing-harness-womens/buying-advice.

As far as I know, the only harnesses with an adjustable rise are the Metolius models https://www.metoliusclimbing.com/climbing-harnesses.html . Another possibility is to contact Misty Mountain and see if they would make a harness with a smaller diameter belay loop.

So the options are one of the women's models with the shortest rise (Petzl, Mad Rock, and Edelrid), a men's model with an even shorter rise, a Metolius harness with an adjustable rise, or maybe a Misty Mountain custom job if they'll do that.

If a new harness is going to be the answer, you want to buy from a brick-and-mortar store with a good supply of different models, a place to try the harness on, and a clip-in point to hang from.  There isn't much chance of getting this right if ordering on the internet.

Some people in the lead rope solo world are using a Petzl ring to lower the belay device.

They are using the petzl ring as the belay loop.  The ring is connected to the hard points of the harness no the belay loop.

rgoldwrote:

It could be the harness, but it is also possible if the person in question has a very short torso.  If the leg loops are not too big, then it's the rise that matters. (The rise measurement is from crotch to waist.)  It seems to be a matter of conventional wisdom that on average women have a longer rise than men, and this difference in rise is a feature of women's vs. men's harnesses.  But even among women-specific harnesses, there are rise differences.  A good account with illustrative images is at https://www.outdoorgearlab.com/topics/climbing/best-climbing-harness-womens/buying-advice.

Great link, rgold! As a coincidence, I was just trying on harnesses yesterday (thanks for misplacing my bag, Spirit!!!!), and my only options were Black Diamond and Edelrid.

The rise on Black Diamond was HUGE, compared to Edelrid (the 2nd is what I chose, bc I do have a shorter rise).

But back to OP, if your partner is short, and has a short torso, as well as the short rise ( I do) the belay device ends up close to face level, when I hang. I’ve never felt that I was even close to HITTING my face on the belly device. If that is the case for your partner, then I would definitely say that the rise is too long, and she is tipping forward

In terms of finding a new harness, if there's not much available in Rexburg, just ask around at the gym. People are usually pretty nice about that sort of beta, and if someone is close to your height and proportions, they will be able to give you feedback on their harness. Probably let you try it out, too.

Best, H.

EDIT to add to the OP, does your partner care? Is she comfortable working the belay device and the harness is working for her? Why are you asking, and not her? If she pops on, that might be more helpful.

Belay loops, carabiners and belay devices are all pretty much set sizes, some a bit larger or smaller, but not as variable as harnesses would be, so there's a certain minimum of space that rigging takes up, no matter what harness you are in. For me, at 4'11", it ends up much higher than for most people. For that reason, I usually extend my rappels.

Here's a photo, after the harness has been weighted. It's a CAMP Jasper, which has fully adjustable waist and leg loops (4 points to doubleback). The angle distorts things, but this is not unusual, to have the rigging way chest height.

For the rope solo peeps? I had to get a single loop (like a belay loop) as the piece of rigging that made the heights work for the chest ascender (CAMP turbo) that's the top piece. No sling worked. Also shopped climbing rated quick links carefully for size.

I wonder If a place that sews/reslings would put a smaller belay loop on.  I’ve been wanting that for a TR solo only harness due to the movement of the devices. It could help a little I think.