Autolocking or screw gate

Consider yourself rather fortunate to talk to Jim about Latok 1. He recently led a trek there and the Hubers were skeered to get on it lol (doubtful, but the weather was bad and Latok 1 is a very, very serious undertaking).

http://www.supertopo.com/tr/2018-Biafo-Latok-trek-a-pictorial/t13348n.html

He also did the FA of probably the first 5.12a rock route (ie not boulder) in American Climbing History, Overhang Overpass, down rated to 11d with cams. Jim led it on angles as well as put up numerous other Yose test pieces on pins. Leanie Meanie, Cream and Basket Case (with Klemens). Straight Bad Ass.

FA Torre Egger, been on the summit of Cerro Torre, Fitzroy and others in the neighborhood I believe. One of the finest climbers in American History.

Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote: ps Ouray ain't Alpine :P

That's my version of alpine! Altitude and I don't exactly get along. I start getting hypoxia somewhere around 11,000' to 12,000', and some of the meds I take don't exactly help with AMS either. Combined with severe Raynauds, my body just isn't cut out for the alpine. But it's alright, I'm fine sticking to massive routes in the desert or the tropics. 

Plus, the amount of choss in Ouray kind of makes it seems pretty alpine.  

eli poss wrote:

That's my version of alpine! Altitude and I don't exactly get along. I start getting hypoxia somewhere around 11,000' to 12,000', and some of the meds I take don't exactly help with AMS either. Combined with severe Raynauds, my body just isn't cut out for the alpine. But it's alright, I'm fine sticking to massive routes in the desert or the tropics. 

Plus, the amount of choss in Ouray kind of makes it seems pretty alpine.  

I deleted that cause it wasn't fair. Ouray is good training etc and seems to be clearly fun in its own right.

Dude, I love all that cold and icy crap, but it just ain't safe. :)

ps. were you saying that Jim was using only one locker rather than 2 for guide mode (one to hang the device, the other for the rope)? Its probably perfectly safe to use with no lockers for bringing up the second, there really is no way they would come unclipped belaying up a second. The makers would freak out if you told them you were though.

I like autolockers on my Grigri. 

Dylan B. wrote:

Are you getting paid to hawk Petzl products, just like you were getting paid to hawk that online course in the other thread without disclosing it?

EDIT: oh yeah, I see it in the fine print at the bottom. “How to choose the best ‘biners: the ones that profit me!”

Nope. I also purchased all the carabiners I list in the “my kit” section of the post with my own money. You may have an issue with affiliate income when people spend time writing detailed online reviews, that’s cool, but it’s also reality for many who spend a lot of time sharing their experience and opinions. Quite easy for you to not click on any affiliate links, open a new window, and make a purchase if you don’t want to support a reviewer. Every opinion I shared in this post is 100% mine. 

Nick Drake wrote:

Nice try, but if you really want to be a weight weannie grivel has your spirit and photons bested by another 6 grams. https://weighmyrack.com/Carabiner/Grivel-Plume-K3G

Offset D shaped biners are going to be lighter by design than pear/HMS shaped biners (which the vaporlock is). Use each where they are appropriate. Offset D is not appropriate for using tube style belay devices and won't accept a munter well, you really ought to have at least one of your lockers be an HMS shape. The new i beam attache is a decent standard to base off, it's 56 grams. You can get the edelrid HMS strike slider at a whopping 62 grams: https://weighmyrack.com/Carabiner/Edelrid-HMS-Strike-Slider

Compare apples to oranges if you wish, but the reality is that you can set up three appropriate autolockers for the same exact weight as three screw gates. More importantly though, if 30 grams total (10gr per biner) makes a difference in your ability to get up a route or not you are woefully unprepared to be climbing in the alpine, period. 

I have 3 lambdas and 2 plumes.  Even though the plumes are lighter, I don't like them as much...the second gate is too wide for cragging.  I did take them on the Ptarmigin traverse and they were a good weight saver in that arena.

which are you using and do you like the most, Nick?

Pete Spri wrote:

I have 3 lambdas and 2 plumes.  Even though the plumes are lighter, I don't like them as much...the second gate is too wide for cragging.  I did take them on the Ptarmigin traverse and they were a good weight saver in that arena.

which are you using and do you like the most, Nick?

Any weight saved in ptarmigan would be nice! I have to do that one of these days, never been past formidable.

I like that plume for clipping a guide device to the master point. I leave it on a Gigi with an old round attaché for most multipitch routes. 

I use a clepsydra small on my grigri for everything and love it. A few partners haven’t been a fan, but others have bought their own.
For tr solo I use a sym oval for the upper device on a dogbone and the lower device is on a large clepsydra on the belay loop. That set up seems to work well.
I was considering trying one of those lamdbas for ice this winter. That’s pretty much the only time I use a tube device anymore. How do you think operating that wire/solid gate would operate with light gloves? 

As long as you're getting a carabiner specifically for belaying you might look into one of the ones that prevents cross-loading the carabiner, since that might also direct your screwlock vs auto-locking choice. I'm really liking my Petzl Freino, which has a little mini carabiner on the side you can use to create friction and lower a heavier climber more easily.

Nick, I did take on Lambda on the PT as well.  Worked just fine with thin gloves.  I don't have any solid/solid gates to compare to, but the wire is easy to get your finger on.

In general I think the wire/wire and wire/solids work really well for snow and ice.  I have had much less problems overall compared to other lockers.

Ps, if you do the PT, consider doing it from S to N.  We did it that way and the horror show of coming down the Bachelor creek drainage is almost complete mitigated because you can follow a climbers trail pretty much all the way up to the pass.  Coming down, people cant find it and have a hard time staying with it.

I like having autos for things I want to be fast (PAS, anchor systems ect.), to have them on me in case I drop my rap devise and have to make a biner brake (nice not having screw gates because they can open up if the rope rubs on the gate), and screw gates for anything else. I don't know why I just like having the screw gate for my belay, just like having the reassurance of closing it myself since it's someone else's life thats depending on it I guess.
Also it's good to get into the habit of just constantly checking them before you tell your partner to climb. 

Reading through this thread made me realize that I haven’t been keeping up with the latest in carabiners. However, since I mostly climb easy trad it’s not important to know the last twists and turns in carabiner development.

The choice between auto-lockers and screw-gate has had a strong influence on my choosing climbing gear. A specific incident sometime in the mid-1970s was the cause. At the time I was belaying with a Sticht Plate.

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/115141590/salewa-sticht-plate

This was just after the first auto-locking carabiners came on the market. I thought they were a fine a idea and bought a couple. I used them with my Sticht plate for belaying and rappelling. All went well, until I did a climb at Lumpy Ridge. All my Lumpy Ridge stories start this way: "It was a warm and sunny day with barely a breeze as we started up the route…at the end of pitch three a severe hail and snow storm suddenly moved in and we were forced to rappel…” My fingers became numb and clumsy in the freezing cold of the storm. Setting up the belay with auto-locker was very difficult under the circumstances.

After that experience I sold the auto-lockers and went back to screw-gates. It also influenced my thinking on gear. Since that time the gear I have chosen has had to be the best gear to use when it is cold, wet, windy and dark (COWWD), which is usually the simplest gear.

Rob.calm

rob.calm wrote: Reading through this thread made me realize that I haven’t been keeping up with the latest in carabiners. However, since I mostly climb easy trad it’s not important to know the last twists and turns in carabiner development.

The choice between auto-lockers and screw-gate has had a strong influence on my choosing climbing gear. A specific incident sometime in the mid-1970s was the cause. At the time I was belaying with a Sticht Plate.

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/115141590/salewa-sticht-plate

This was just after the first auto-locking carabiners came on the market. I thought they were a fine a idea and bought a couple. I used them with my Sticht plate for belaying and rappelling. All went well, until I did a climb at Lumpy Ridge. All my Lumpy Ridge stories start this way: "It was a warm and sunny day with barely a breeze as we started up the route…at the end of pitch three a severe hail and snow storm suddenly moved in and we were forced to rappel…” My fingers became numb and clumsy in the freezing cold of the storm. Setting up the belay with auto-locker was very difficult under the circumstances.

After that experience I sold the auto-lockers and went back to screw-gates. It also influenced my thinking on gear. Since that time the gear I have chosen has had to be the best gear to use when it is cold, wet, windy and dark (COWWD), which is usually the simplest gear.

Rob.calm

Per Mikey Schaefer, Steve House has been using the dual wire gate Grivel Plume for real Alpine (ie South America, Himalaya) when he wants a light locker so those are worth a look. They won't freeze.

Just tested out my ATC XP with two wire gate biners (gates opposed) and it worked just fine.....no lockers needed at all that way. 14kn when cross loaded ;).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFabsRFnWy0

^^^ NSFW due to naughty language.

Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote: Just tested out my ATC XP with two wire gate biners (gates opposed) and it worked just fine.....no lockers needed at all that way. 14kn when cross loaded ;).

And it avoids a danger with a locker, namely the locker jamming. There were a couple of threads years ago on rockclimbing.com about somebody who got lashed to his belay stance because his locking carabiner was stuck and he didn't have a knife on him to cut the sling that attached him to the anchor

Screw gate. BD Positron, Edelrid Pure Screw, Petzle Attache.

The makers don't say you can't use two regular carabiners with gates opposed, Kyle.

Its not hard to understand.

And its arguably even safer, if a little sticky.

And you realize that these attempts to "catch" some error of mine reflects a whole lot more on you than it does on me, right?

Right?

Magnetrons work great. Not great in alpine or ice climbing however, as ice and dirt can get between the magnets and keep the gate from locking. Ice can also make it extremely difficult to open. Sounds like this isn't an issue for you though. Easy to operate one handed. It's my go-to for a belay carabiner.

I can't believe that no one has been interested in the locking biner question for four years!  This whole discussion didn't really come to much of a consensus either. Maybe we can if I put some limitation on scope here? 

1) I would like to ask for comments on non-screw gates only:  
Not mentioned above at all:  many screw-gate biners STICK.  REALLY BADLY.  at either end. I just won't use these for my rap/belay biner any more. (They are fine for anchors, etc. for me.)

By comparison, my weird old stubai auto-locker never, ever stuck under any condition; on the other hand, today it doesn't really prevent unlocking by something rubbing against the sleeve.    

2) For the personal rap and belay biner, GIVEN that you (1) want a non-screw gate, and that (2) your system must work well with gloves and in snow/ice, do people have a 2022 favorite? 

Additional comments: 

-I personally have no experience with the "tri" type auto-lockers.  These sound encouraging, but I don't see any good videos or other explanations about them, nor do I have any reports about how easy they are to operate in the dark with gloves on. -Anybody use Petzl sm'D triact lock?  is that difficult with gloves or doesn't work well in ice/snow?

-Outdoor gear lab said Petzl sm'D  (What the heck does that abbreviation mean?) twist-lock was one of the best.  I'm a little scared of a twist-lock such that the only thing that is keeping it locked is a spring.  Plenty of forces in climbing that would defeat a little spring. Am I not understanding what these really are? 

-There as almost a consensus that people with magnetrons like them - but they are just no good in snow/ice. 

-Note that I hate weight, I am a wimp, I enjoy life much more going light at every opportunity.

I use the Petzl Williams Ball Lock as my belay/rappel carabiner and have done so for years now. They take a little getting used to, but once you get the knack for them they are really easy to operate single handed with or without gloves. I'm also an arborist and use these for all of my life support carabiners (OHSA requires autolockers here), so I use them year round from 100F to 0F. 

Now the Triact carabiners I can't stand, I never really figured out how to reliably use them single handed. 

sm'D = small D
We sell the twist (2-stage) version rapidly. They are excellent.