Gear announcement: a stick clip that doesn't suck

Two stick clip stories. 

First: Warming up on a 10b, a rando comes up 

Rando: Have you climbed this before?

Me: No

Rando: You should really stick clip to the second bolt

Me: Ok

Me inside my head: Do you not know I'm a 5.11+ climber??? Just watch me flash this .... Hmm, he seems like a nice guy, no attitude .... I'll stick clip it

Me on the climb: Thank god I listened to him and stick clipped  it

Second story. I just warmed up on a 10a and my partner is going to lead it, he's fairly new leader but should be able to do this. This route has a known slick foot hold before the first bolt and I tell him about it. We discuss if we should clip the first bolt but decide it's too much trouble to bust it out. He slips on the foot hold and comes down hard onto his foot. Luckily is just bruised and he needed a couple of weeks of rest.

I'm at the age where I got enough body parts going bad on their own that I don't need a ground fall to add to my problems. My motto: When it doubt, stick clip it out!

To answer Matt N,

Yes, absolutely vaccinated and have no problem wearing a mask indoors to protect other people.

How does being vaccinated relate to climbing a route in good style?

Climbing is a sport, at the end of the day I need to feel good about my climbing.

Ask yourself if you knew you wouldn’t fall, given the choice would you still use a stick clip?

Did you still lead the climb that you top roped with a stick clip to get through the crux?

I have nothing against anyone wishing to use a stick clip since it does not harm the environment and can make a climb much safer for those that wish to climb this way.  I am trying to bring forward the stick clip discussion for those that want to think of how you get to the top vs just getting to the top. Style always made a big difference in how good I felt afterwards.  

Apparently I got you confused with another David that was likely anti-vax... (and it was going to question that person's judgement) 

but it still works as an analogy - 100% certain you won't fall vs 99.5% certain you won't die from a virus - and choosing additional safety mechanisms

We've all had unexpected foot slips, yet I agree with you on the style argument, but my ego no longer cares to compete - I'll stick clip a "trad" route if I feel it necessary for safety. I'd much rather not get hurt and continue being able to climb vs "send in style." I'll still climb R-rated routes and defend their lack of bolts... 

but to not stick clip a sport route start b/c of "good style"? Sport climbing has no style  ;)  that argument fails on it's face.

Never claimed that Sport Climbing has no style, any type of climbing can have good or poor style.

I would much rather send a climb clean then grovel on something above my ability.

A generation ago most climbers were taught very differently then they are today since the sport very much flew under the radar.

I can’t even count the number of times in the past 2 decades I hooked up at the crags with someone claiming they climb 5.11 or even 5.12’s only to see them snail eye on some 5.9 or 5.10 ….. then hand me the sharp end. For many climbers it’s now all about spraying grades, the soulfulness of climbing  is lost and they don’t see what they are missing. The stick clip method of climbing is a crutch once it becomes a habit, I would rather do climbs within my ability and feel I actually did a climb including the crux on lead the same as the 1st accent party. (I am hoping people aren’t rap bolting new routes with the intention of stick clipping the first bolt, that would be very lame.)

David Katzwrote:

The stick clip method of climbing is a crutch once it becomes a habit, I would rather do climbs within my ability and feel I actually did a climb including the crux on lead the same as the 1st accent party. (I am hoping people aren’t rap bolting new routes with the intention of stick clipping the first bolt, that would be very lame.)

I think there's some misunderstanding about what David's actually ranting about here, which is people carrying a stick clip up a route to clip past a crux on a route they "don't belong" on. This is certainly done sometimes, mostly in the upper grades and usually early in the process of working a route. It's only a crutch in the same sense that hangdogging, toproping and general redpoint tactics are a crutch. Sure, I'd love to onsight (free solo!) every 5.13 I try, like a true mountain climber, but I can't, so I have to make some compromises in Style while attempting a (*pinkpoint) free ascent. Do I feel bad about this if/when I eventually manage to free climb a route at my limit? Lol, no.

In reality, most people only use a stick to clip a high first bolt or two off the ground. I don't often see someone actually free climbing with a stick on their harness (not a great idea, but who cares?). And yes, some routes are bolted with the intention of stick clipping the first bolt and have been since the 80s (e.g. Da Kine Corner at Smith Rock) so most climbers of this generation understand that. Most of these routes would require at least 1 or 2 additional bolts at the start to adequately protect from ground fall without a stick clip, and sometimes even this wouldn't work if there's a crux right off the ground that would prevent safely clipping. (All of this under the premise that sport climbing places emphasis on physical difficulty while minimizing exposure to risk.)

Anyhow, the Skyhook looks awesome, I'll be picking one up when my superclip and avy probe combo fails.

Kevin Piarulliwrote:

[Many sensible things]

The Voice of Reason returns to this thread! I completely agree with everything you said.

Also, after a flight to Red Rock and a season in the RRG, I continue to be 100% satisfied with my Skyhook.

David continues to claim some moral high ground when it comes to people who stick clip, physically challenge themselves and enjoy a form of climbing that he doesn't.  Who the fuck cares.  Go do your "mountain climbing" in the style you like and stop trying to police peoples experiences with their own climbing.  

Back to the topic at hand - ive had 3 trango clips - all broke either at the clip mechanism or the cheap plastic rings inside that tighten the sections all broke.  I'm curious if this one has beefier and high quality parts that won't break.  

David Katzwrote:

Never claimed that Sport Climbing has no style, any type of climbing can have good or poor style.

I would much rather send a climb clean then grovel on something above my ability.

A generation ago most climbers were taught very differently then they are today since the sport very much flew under the radar.

I can’t even count the number of times in the past 2 decades I hooked up at the crags with someone claiming they climb 5.11 or even 5.12’s only to see them snail eye on some 5.9 or 5.10 ….. then hand me the sharp end. For many climbers it’s now all about spraying grades, the soulfulness of climbing  is lost and they don’t see what they are missing. The stick clip method of climbing is a crutch once it becomes a habit, I would rather do climbs within my ability and feel I actually did a climb including the crux on lead the same as the 1st accent party. (I am hoping people aren’t rap bolting new routes with the intention of stick clipping the first bolt, that would be very lame.)

The fact that you climb with chuffers doesn't mean that sticking the next bolt up isn't a valuable tactic when trying to work out the beta on something that's above your limit. There's a few good reasons why one might do this- bad fall potential is one. You seem to be asserting that because you've climbed with people that way overstated their ability and relied on a stick to get up everything that isn't pedestrian in the realm of sport climbing grades, that using a stick in any capacity deserves denigration.  I disagree.  I've used a stick in a variety of ways, and yes, including to get past something on a bolted route that I couldn't free.  If the send police ask, then I don't say I freed the route.  It's pretty simple.  

If you want to ground up everything and lower back to the ground if you fall a-la Bachar style from BITD, more power to you.  But just because other people have different tactics on bolted routes than that doesn't mean they have some sort of cosmic climbing derision that should be automatically attributed.

There is a whole spectrum of things to be said here, but if one follows this general rule, then integrity can be maintained:  There is no cheating, there's only lying.  You can get to the top however you want, you just can't say you did it any other way than how you did it.  And FREE ASCENT means only one thing.

DB Ceewrote:

Back to the topic at hand - ive had 3 trango clips - all broke either at the clip mechanism or the cheap plastic rings inside that tighten the sections all broke.  I'm curious if this one has beefier and high quality parts that won't break.  

The flip-lock mechanisms for each section are bomber. I find it helpful for pole stability to take Cialis not extend each segment to the limit. The SuperClip is solid too and stays screwed on, even when you're hauling it up a route in order to rob yourself of the purity of true climbing and deceive the world for the sake of self-aggrandizement, or whatever that guy is alleging.

If mine got stolen by Shawn Snyder, I would buy another. The biggest selling point for me is how compact it gets (fits completely inside a Creek 50 with the Superclip attached, doesn't impale passengers in my Honda Fit).

David Katzwrote:

I can’t even count the number of times in the past 2 decades I hooked up at the crags with someone claiming they climb 5.11 or even 5.12’s only to see them snail eye on some 5.9 or 5.10 ….. then hand me the sharp end. 

The fact that you have had to resort to climbing with strangers more times than you can count should tell you something. 

Doug Chismwrote:

The fact that you have had to resort to climbing with strangers more times than you can count should tell you something. 

Going on 50 years of climbing with no shortage of awesome climbing partners, maybe do some research before judging with your snarky comment. Climbing with strangers is very common when you travel a lot to new areas and your wife doesn’t climb or when your friendly and inclusive to fellow climbers you meet at your home crag.

David Katzwrote:

Going on 50 years of climbing with no shortage of awesome climbing partners, maybe do some research before judging with your snarky comment. Climbing with strangers is very common when you travel a lot to new areas and your wife doesn’t climb or when your friendly and inclusive to fellow climbers you meet at your home crag.

Maybe you should do more research before judging with your snarky comments. Adam Ondra considers stick clipping the first bolt completely valid, and even the second if its a matter of safety. Id love to see you tell him to his face how many of his sends dont count in your book. You can go onto his youtube channel and see him climbing with a stick clipped first bolt many times. If you are going to judge me for stick clipping routes for myself or my family, I am free to judge you. 

Doug Chismwrote:

Maybe you should do more research before judging with your snarky comments. Adam Ondra considers stick clipping the first bolt completely valid, and even the second if its a matter of safety. Id love to see you tell him to his face how many of his sends dont count in your book. You can go onto his youtube channel and see him climbing with a stick clipped first bolt many times. If you are going to judge me for stick clipping routes for myself or my family, I am free to judge you. 

I must have accidentally hit a hot button?
Really I have no idea who you are nor do I care if you ( or “your family” as you wrote ) use a stick clip. I am only writing about observations I see when climbing, nothing personal was said about you until right now. You seem like a big baby man since it bothers you so much that my opinion differs from yours when trying to have a online discussion about climbing technique and style and you felt the need to personally attack me. My apologies if I offended any climbers on this thread that don’t wish to be open minded to a different philosophy of climbing.

David Katzwrote:

I must have accidentally hit a hot button?
Really I have no idea who you are nor do I care if you ( or “your family” as you wrote ) use a stick clip. I am only writing about observations I see when climbing, nothing personal was said about you until right now. You seem like a big baby man since it bothers you so much that my opinion differs from yours when trying to have a online discussion about climbing technique and style and you felt the need to personally attack me. My apologies if I offended any climbers on this thread that don’t wish to be open minded to a different philosophy of climbing.

Strange how you call me names like a child and then try to act like you are the adult having a thoughtful discussion.

It’s a shame people like you exist in this community. 

Doug Chismwrote:

Strange how you call me names like a child and then try to act like you are the adult having a thoughtful discussion.

It’s a shame people like you exist in this community.

Read back your comments and see who decided to make this personal?

F r i t zwrote:

The flip-lock mechanisms for each section are bomber. I find it helpful for pole stability to take Cialis not extend each segment to the limit. The SuperClip is solid too and stays screwed on, even when you're hauling it up a route in order to rob yourself of the purity of true climbing and deceive the world for the sake of self-aggrandizement, or whatever that guy is alleging.

If mine got stolen by Shawn Snyder, I would buy another. The biggest selling point for me is how compact it gets (fits completely inside a Creek 50 with the Superclip attached, doesn't impale passengers in my Honda Fit).

Yeah - the flip lock part on the Trango is fine too - I'm curious about what's inside each section (that works with the flip lock to create the lock itself).  That's what keeps breaking on mine.  I actually cut off the clip part of the Trango one and put on a super clip as its simpler, more durable, and performs better than their chincy plastic clip.  

the little cam-locks push a tiny plastic bar into the groove on each section. I think the biggest weak spot of the skyhook is the little white plastic rings in each section that prevent it from extending too far-- if one breaks, and the section comes out of the rest, this little plastic bar can easily disappear (one of the sections of mine no longer has that little preventer ring, so I have to be careful. almost lost the locking bar in some leaves). this happened when one of my knucklehead friends lightsabered that mf open with great vengeance and furious anger. don't do that, as Quinn repeatedly says.

Lincoln Swrote:

t. this happened when one of my knucklehead friends lightsabered that mf open with great vengeance and furious anger. 

Your friend sounds like a real mushroom-cloud-laying muthafugga.

Lincoln Swrote:

the little cam-locks push a tiny plastic bar into the groove on each section. I think the biggest weak spot of the skyhook is the little white plastic rings in each section that prevent it from extending too far-- if one breaks, and the section comes out of the rest, this little plastic bar can easily disappear (one of the sections of mine no longer has that little preventer ring, so I have to be careful. almost lost the locking bar in some leaves). this happened when one of my knucklehead friends lightsabered that mf open with great vengeance and furious anger. don't do that, as Quinn repeatedly says.

Ok - that's all I need to know.  That's the weak link of the Trango as well.  Really makes the $70+ Trango and Skyhook charge not worth it at all if that's the weak link.  I'll just be sticking with painter poles til someone figures out how to craft a small portable one that uses durable parts.  

DB Ceewrote:

Ok - that's all I need to know.  That's the weak link of the Trango as well.  Really makes the $70+ Trango and Skyhook charge not worth it at all if that's the weak link.  I'll just be sticking with painter poles til someone figures out how to craft a small portable one that uses durable parts.  

I believe Skyhook was copied from Trango and there is nothing like a pianter's pole (which can be found anywhere in the world for a fraction of the cost of the formers). Personally, I hate Trango stick fully extended (too wobbly for anything). And yes, I do use sticks on hard routes (13+) to preclip and practise the moves.

Redpointing is a thing of the past (and yes, did that too)