Grades- your vote counts!

Thank you everyone for your extremely thoughtful comments. I would love to comment on bolting and then steer the convo back to grading routes publicly because I think it actually envelopes other points discussed in this thread. Consider this:

A 5.10c sport climb that is very reachy for a small person and has a hard to reach clip over a ledge (we have ALL been on one like this) could receive a grade of 5.10d R, for example. Further explanation could be added in the comments: “Reachy move before bolt 4, impossible to clip 6th bolt until post-crux moves over a ledge. Bring a stiffy!” 

This is the exact reason I asked this question: I want to know more about the experience on a route from my peers (size peers   ). A LOT of information can be very quickly gleaned from a grade. 5.10c for Layton = 5.10d R for Amy. Got it. Then I can choose to spoil my onsight with more detailed beta in the comments. Or just go for it, or not!  

I am a woman who has bolted many routes: by hand, with machine, ground up, top-down. I honestly can say that I judge where to slam a bolt in based on those styles, unfortunately not only on my height. This is probably true for many people, including tall men. My advice to people, all sizes, is to gather that type of info from the crag before you go: 

1. Is it top- down, rappel bolting here? (Generally this type of bolting is better thought-out, rehearsed, machine bolted resulting in less spaced bolts usually, and bolts placed at the best stances). Or ground up? (Cruxes will NOT be bolted ever and all bolts, no matter who installed them, will be reachy cuz that’s the most efficient use of time. Prepare for battle, small friends)

2. Who bolted it? (Layton Kor? Better bring a stiffy draw; Lenore Sparks? I can reach it all and count on soft grades   )

Many factors go into bolting a line. Rope drag, reach, contriving a line to where you want haha, squeeze jobs, peer pressure! It’s not fair to tell people to reach out to every FA party on every route yadda yadda if the bolts aren’t ideal. What’s better: voting for grades including PG/PG13/R/S/X ratings. :) I promise to always be thoughtful for the little, the big, and everyone in between. Safety is always my main concern. 

There were so many amazing points presented so far. Everyone had a very interesting angle and I sincerely can’t thank you all enough for commenting and being polite. I’m excited to hear more opinions! 

More public information on height-dependent safety via MP is a great idea, Lenore. Even better if it was in guidebooks - a little icon similar to ones that indicate bad rock, for example. 

How often do shorter climbers rack a stiffy? I know it's not usually touted as "standard" sport climbing gear, but some folks I climb with who are very short keep it on their harness any time they're putting up draws.

Big Redwrote:

How often do shorter climbers rack a stiffy?

I never leave the ground without one. I have always made my own homemade ones long before you could buy them. It’s common sense. 

My 4’10” partner does not use a stiffy. However, she has been known to haul up clip sticks and hang extended draws. Sometimes she (gasp!) top ropes a route into submission before giving a RP attempt.

Anyway, whenever she sends something that I don’t, we all know that it’s not because she is a former gymnast muscle hamster, but because she has tiny hands and and can fit into a small box. 

Ry Cwrote:

Honestly, I've never even thought to vote. I usually look at the grade, read the comments for gear beta or something, and hope for the best. I do tend to avoid leading routes that say, "harder for short people". I'm 5'3" with a -4 ape index so while I'm near average for height, I still can't reach a darn thing. On rock, I do get annoyed when a moderate 5.8 turns out having some obscure 5.10 intermediate move because I couldn't reach the nice jug, but what really really annoys me is...bolting. We all can probably agree that bolting is primarily male dominated, as is FAs and climbing in general.

Yes! Rock is rock, no point in being mad at it. But the bolt was placed by a human, and when that human is completely unaware of how inaccessible his bolt placement is to someone short, or how dismissive (or even aggressive) they get, if you point it out— THAT is annoying. And if that bolt placement makes the difference between having a well-protected crux, or facing a bad fall, that is even more annoying.

A bit more on topic, your sentence: "Do they feel like they will be scorned if they downgrade (poor male egos) or upgrade (will I be ridiculed and seen as not strong enough)? " Strikes a chord…

…Maybe some smaller people are so dismissed so they don't feel like they're allowed an opinion/rating/comment.

Like this? Or this? Or this? Or this?

Also, one comment that I absolutely hate is: "Ah well Lynn Hill is only 5'2" so you should be able to do it if you're short!" Yeah man, Lynn Hill is also a professional climber and one of the 0.1% of all climbers. I'm a regular human trying to have a good time. Tommy Caldwell is your height, why can't you send the 5.14?

Heh! Yes, I thought the same thing! 

Thanks for sharing, Lena. If it’s any consolation, I and my climbing partners all think those commenters are imbeciles. (It is mind-boggling to me that people would get worked up to the point of trolling over this.)

Old lady Hwrote:

But if it's the route as a whole? A lot of stuff bitd was put in pretty casually, especially on easier stuff. They didn't waste money putting five or six bolts on it, if 4 were sufficient. If you're worried about falling on a 5.6,7,8 climb, then you have no business in the mountains in the first place, right?

My local stuff is flat out hazardous, with the bolting, if you climb at those lower grades. 

But?

To "fix" that?

You'd totally destroy climbing history. They would have to be redone top to bottom, to add a bolt or 2 and close up the spacing.

5.6 climbers have as much business in the mountains and at the crags as 5.15 climbers. Albeit on different routes.

If the bolts at your local area were placed ground up on lead, then it's history. Maybe a history to be proud of, maybe not.

If the bolts were placed on rappel, then it's just a botched bolting job and the routes should be retro bolted properly.

Lena chitawrote:

Like this? Or this? Or this? Or this?

My lord, that's embarrassing and bordering on harassment. But "the climbing community is welcoming to everybody" or something like that...   

With respect to everyone that’s commented, and with the stipulation that there certainly are valid complaints, grievances, etc., it’s not always as simple as that.

And before I go much further, I perpetually advocate for MORE female route developers and setters for precisely the reasons discussed in this thread, and for simply fresher perspectives and variety.

Also, I’ll say this- usually I’m against deferring to the judgment of stronger climbers, but difficulty grades and or bolt placements (related, often times but not inextricably linked) is the exception.  

Lena is stronger than me probably by several letter grades.  If she thought a grade was accurate and I thought it was sandbagged, especially if it’s at or past my physical ability, I would most likely ask for beta, and abandon the thought that the route is sandbagged.  

My point is that if you’re an 11/11+ climber and you’re on a 12, you might be missing something, or you may not be able to hold onto something that stronger climbers can in order to make upward progress.

The Lynn Hill and Tommy Caldwell comments are valid, but they’re also outliers.  We’re likely not talking about elite grades, so invoking the “yeah, but they are elite climbers” argument isn’t that persuasive.  

Are there routes that were developed and given a difficulty grade by tall men that might not be accurate for everyone?  Absolutely.  There are also routes developed by people with freakish flexibility and cracks graded by people with smaller or larger hands than I have that feel easier or harder than the stated grade because of that.  

The person commenting on the redriverclimbing site is an idiot and a coward.  Of course if more effort or commitment is needed by someone that is shorter, the route is harder.  I get laughed at and called weak when I can’t hold onto crimps that someone that has hands that are 35% smaller than mine can- so contrary to popular belief, it works both ways.

Also, as food for thought, though I’ll concede we cannot change our height, routes can feel way more difficult for a variety of reasons and height isn’t the crown jewel of reasons for failure.  I’m tall, this is true, and I’ll be the first to admit that in many cases that gives me an advantage compared to shorter climbers.  However, I routinely get shut down on routes that require high stepping, high, intricate heel hooks, wide lateral stemming, and lock-offs on small crimps (I know, I barely sound like a climber).  

I climb mostly at the New, which is notorious for having routes with all these attributes- and the more difficult they are, the more likely they are to have ALL those features/required moves- often times in rapid succession.  I can’t count how many times I’ve seen someone that’s short (for argument’s sake, I’ll say 5.9 is “average”; below that is short, above is tall) try a route and exclaim that it’s impossible for someone below x height, only to have someone shorter that’s sent say “have you tried ____?  Look for yourself, there are plenty of those comments (mostly on the 11+ and up range) here on MP on MANY New River routes.  

With regard to bolting- the harder the route, the less options exist for bolt placements/clip stances.  On the other hand, there are poorly bolted routes, so often times gripes are justified.  I’ve made a habit of avoiding routes if I know a developer notorious for wacky bolt placement developed them.

With the concession that height advantage definitely is a thing, what does bemoaning it do?  Does it scrunch the holds up so you can reach them?  Does it move the bolt?  Nope.  It just upsets you and makes you less likely to make progress the vast majority of the time.  Rage sends are possible though ;-)

I strongly encourage, as Lenore does, to make your voices heard, short women of MP.  There is nothing wrong with saying, as Lena does, “it’s harder if you’re short”.  Consensus grading should include your input- you’re out there climbing and trying hard just like everyone else.  But, if someone shorter than you finds the beta and it goes at the same grade, you must be as willing to eat those words as you were to initially proclaim them.  If you’re a veteran climber like Lena, then you’ll be right almost all the time, but if you’re new to climbing or just breaking into a grade- or you’re at a new area, humility will be a valuable asset.

The longer I climb and the more I learn, both about climbing and the deficiencies that I can maybe improve upon but never completely rid myself of, the more grades seem impossibly subjective to me- which has the end result of them mattering less and less.  That’s probably the best thing to ever happen to me as a climber. I get inspired by the natural beauty of lines and by people that I climb with, and often times their success yields more elation for me than my own.  That’s a good thing, considering that the older I get, the less success I seem to have, but there’s still some to be had .

I always feel weird and like I’m intruding when I post in the Women’s forum, so please know that a great deal of deliberation went into these paragraphs, and if I’ve offended anyone, it certainly wasn’t intentional.

Sorry, bryans, I still reserve the right to at least swear and curse, if no whining is allowed?   

I don't have complaints for City of Rocks, bolting wise. It is a heads up locale though, if it's a trad line. They can be spicy, spicy!

My primary "this sucks" bolting is my own local Black Cliffs. It just is what it is, though. It went in many decades ago, so it really does need to just be faced for how it is. 

Fortunately for me?

I have lead hungry fools for partners, and enjoy jtst being on a rope, free to climb wherever I want, in reach of that top rope, and maybe not following that arbitrary route line, lol!

Comments comments comments. Stuff breaks, big hunks go, shit, one entire face fell off locally. We wouldn't hesitate to add in that info, so why not add if it's tough for someone shorter? 

Funny story. I was at Rollercoaster, on Bath rock at City of Rocks, with our over 50 group. A COR developer from bitd happens to be barely taller than I am. He agreed with me that the route was mildly harder than it used to be, for a shorty like me, as the start is pretty ground off. But, he couldn't believe that I couldn't reach a handhold to start.

So?

I walked right up there. He walked right up. Both hands went up. 

He could reach. I could not.

I told him "I shoulda bet you half your rack!"

His rejoinder?

"You're the only adult climber I know who's actually shorter than me!!!"

So that start? Literally one of my very first leads, and my first ever route at City 6 years earlier?

Now has a teeny tiny rather fun dyno to start!

And I don't bother leading it.

Nor the crap I whine about locally, lol! 

Best, Helen

As a short person, I have to do a shoutout and send love to the route developers who are thoughtful about bolt placement. I have a couple of friends who put routes within the past couple of years and they were very intentional about being sure that the bolts could be clipped from safe stances. It can be done, but it requires some extra effort. I definitely appreciate short person beta in comments about routes, especially if it involves info on extra gear that I might need to accomplish a climb safely. 

Jake Joneswrote:

Also, I’ll say this- usually I’m against deferring to the judgment of stronger climbers, but difficulty grades and or bolt placements (related, often times but not inextricably linked) is the exception.  

Lots of points I want to respond to! I agree with this, but I think this is more applicable to bolt placement than difficultly. A comment from someone new, something along the lines of “I’ve only been on a handful of 5.10s, but this 10a felt harder than any other I’ve tried” is also valuable.

Not necessarily to indicate that the route is harder than a 10a, but rather that it might have something tricky/nonobvious, or require some kind of technique that newer gym climbers aren’t exposed to.

At the end of the day, if another new climber is looking for routes to try, that input might be more valuable to them than an opinion of a 5.13 climber who flashed the route, and didn’t remember anything in particular about the beta, because it was just so far below his pay-attention-and-try-hard level.

The Lynn Hill and Tommy Caldwell comments are valid, but they’re also outliers.  We’re likely not talking about elite grades, so invoking the “yeah, but they are elite climbers” argument isn’t that persuasive.  

It doesn’t have to be an elite grade, and elite grade isn’t where these comments are most often thrown about. If I say that something is harder if you are short, that does not at all equal “it is impossible if you are short”. It simply means that it feels harder than the grade. If the climb is a 5.10, and I can climb much harder than that, I can probably pull it off, whether by using smaller intermediates, or making a more powerful move, or employing some “tricky” beta. If 5.10 is my limit, I probably can’t. So bringing up “Lynn Hill could do it” is not at all productive. Lynn Hill, and a bunch of short 5.12 climbers could probably do it. This particular girl who is struggling on this move can’t. Not yet. Maybe when she climbs 5.11s she can come back to this 5.10, and do it.

I climb mostly at the New, which is notorious for having routes with all these attributes- and the more difficult they are, the more likely they are to have ALL those features/required moves- often times in rapid succession.  I can’t count how many times I’ve seen someone that’s short (for argument’s sake, I’ll say 5.9 is “average”; below that is short, above is tall) try a route and exclaim that it’s impossible for someone below x height, only to have someone shorter that’s sent say “have you tried ____?  Look for yourself, there are plenty of those comments (mostly on the 11+ and up range) here on MP on MANY New River routes.  

This is why I believe that more comments/grade/quality votes are beneficial. One person saying that the route is reachy could be mistaken. Could have missed something. Could have had a bad day. 3 different people saying that on different occasions make it much more likely that the route is actually reachy. 5 people saying that is even stronger. But in order to have multiple people saying that, you would have to make this input required, when adding ticks. And I do also think that anonymous aggregated grade votes shown as a histogram, instead of showing each individual vote would be better. Some people would be more likely anonymously to put in the actual number of how they felt the route difficulty.

There is nothing wrong with saying, as Lena does, “it’s harder if you’re short”.  Consensus grading should include your input- you’re out there climbing and trying hard just like everyone else.  But, if someone shorter than you finds the beta and it goes at the same grade, you must be as willing to eat those words as you were to initially proclaim them.  If you’re a veteran climber like Lena, then you’ll be right almost all the time, but if you’re new to climbing or just breaking into a grade- or you’re at a new area, humility will be a valuable asset.

Sure. but I feel like this isn’t about the final and authoritative decision of the route grade. Each individual person’s comment should be taken as just that. One person’s opinion, no matter how experienced. I’m perfectly fine with one person saying “this feels like a reachy 12a”, and another person coming back with “I’m 5’2”, I flashed it, and it seemed like an easy 11c”. The likelihood is that both of those are outliers, and the route will get a consensus 11d from a bunch of 5’10”guys.

You could go into deep analysis and figure out that the person 1 found it hard because they have really stiff hips, and can’t do a drop-knee, or because they are afraid of dynoing and hurting their wonky shoulder, or because they are really bad at crimps, or can’t fit a swollen knuckle into a ring lock, while the person 2 is a gym kid who campuses routes for a warmup, or is a 5.14 knee scum wizard, or has small hands, or whatever.

That still wouldn’t make the route any easier for person 1. So I don’t think the person 1 needs to eat their comment, if they are shown that another person of the same height can do the route. (Just like the Lynn Hill comment). 

And I think that is ok, and the opinion of person 1 is just as valuable as the opinion of person 2, and neither one should be given much weight. They both should be just one vote out of, hopefully, 100s. But you are not going to get 100s of votes, unless everyone has to put in their vote. AND not face a close scrutiny for it. The redriverclimbing comments I linked don’t bother me much. But I do think that seeing stuff like that absolutely discourages other people from providing input.

And, ego being what it is, you will see people much more willing to put in “this route is soft! Felt barely 12a”, and a lot fewer people willing to say “this felt really hard”, if their names are showing next to the comment. 

Thanks for this post, Lenore! I’ve been trying to comment on routes more often but haven’t been grading them much. 

Lena chitawrote:

Lots of points I want to respond to! I agree with this, but I think this is more applicable to bolt placement than difficultly. A comment from someone new, something along the lines of “I’ve only been on a handful of 5.10s, but this 10a felt harder than any other I’ve tried” is also valuable.

Not necessarily to indicate that the route is harder than a 10a, but rather that it might have something tricky/nonobvious, or require some kind of technique that newer gym climbers aren’t exposed to.

At the end of the day, if another new climber is looking for routes to try, that input might be more valuable to them than an opinion of a 5.13 climber who flashed the route, and didn’t remember anything in particular about the beta, because it was just so far below his pay-attention-and-try-hard level.

Couldn't agree more- my comment was relegated to the actual grade of the route.  But, as you suggest, if this resource is utilized to its full potential, and is truly "beyond the guidebook", then you're 100% on point.

It doesn’t have to be an elite grade, and elite grade isn’t where these comments are most often thrown about. If I say that something is harder if you are short, that does not at all equal “it is impossible if you are short”. It simply means that it feels harder than the grade. If the climb is a 5.10, and I can climb much harder than that, I can probably pull it off, whether by using smaller intermediates, or making a more powerful move, or employing some “tricky” beta. If 5.10 is my limit, I probably can’t. So bringing up “Lynn Hill could do it” is not at all productive. Lynn Hill, and a bunch of short 5.12 climbers could probably do it. This particular girl who is struggling on this move can’t. Not yet. Maybe when she climbs 5.11s she can come back to this 5.10, and do it.

Totally.  But I think in the context in which the esteemed Lynn Hill's name first came up in this thread was that she's short, but she was the first person to free The Nose, to which the response was 'yeah, but she's an elite climber'.  I think that can be extrapolated up or down to any grade and the "elite" part of it is largely inconsequential.  The whole point behind saying that is that a shorter person can do what taller people can do, and even some things they can't.  I think that's applicable, but my wording of that particular point was probably janky and confusing.  I agree that it doesn't have to be an elite grade.  Saying Lynn Hill can do something that a climber that tops out at 5.10 cannot isn't helpful at all, we're in total agreement here, but that's not the context I was inferring.

This is why I believe that more comments/grade/quality votes are beneficial. One person saying that the route is reachy could be mistaken. Could have missed something. Could have had a bad day. 3 different people saying that on different occasions make it much more likely that the route is actually reachy. 5 people saying that is even stronger. But in order to have multiple people saying that, you would have to make this input required, when adding ticks. And I do also think that anonymous aggregated grade votes shown as a histogram, instead of showing each individual vote would be better. Some people would be more likely anonymously to put in the actual number of how they felt the route difficulty.

Sure. but I feel like this isn’t about the final and authoritative decision of the route grade. Each individual person’s comment should be taken as just that. One person’s opinion, no matter how experienced. I’m perfectly fine with one person saying “this feels like a reachy 12a”, and another person coming back with “I’m 5’2”, I flashed it, and it seemed like an easy 11c”. The likelihood is that both of those are outliers, and the route will get a consensus 11d from a bunch of 5’10”guys.

Again, we're in 100% agreement.  Not actually trying to be a yes man, but your observations are accurate, which is why I wholeheartedly advocate for everyone's voice being heard.  There's not much sense in having a consensus grading system if you're not actually getting a consensus from anyone but tall dudes with egos- or without, for that matter.

You could go into deep analysis and figure out that the person 1 found it hard because they have really stiff hips, and can’t do a drop-knee, or because they are afraid of dynoing and hurting their wonky shoulder, or because they are really bad at crimps, or can’t fit a swollen knuckle into a ring lock, while the person 2 is a gym kid who campuses routes for a warmup, or is a 5.14 knee scum wizard, or has small hands, or whatever.

That still wouldn’t make the route any easier for person 1. So I don’t think the person 1 needs to eat their comment, if they are shown that another person of the same height can do the route. (Just like the Lynn Hill comment).

Yeah, I wasn't saying that, or at least not intending to.  This is splitting hairs a bit (on both ends, I think)- but my comment in this regard pertains to (and this has happened to me on more than one occasion, both times on 5.10 cracks no less, both at the New ) if someone the same height or shorter than you does the route with beta that makes it go, at or even near the same grade, then any proclamation along the lines of "no way that thing is ___ grade, this thing is sandbagged!" or equivalent, should at least internally be corrected to something along the lines of "ok, I was wrong.  I either wasn't strong enough, or wasn't creative enough to find what is possible to make it freeable at the same grade".  In my case (and these two cases aren't the ONLY two- but probably the most obvious and the most egregious in my proclamation that these routes were waaaaaay harder than the stated grade *hahaha*) there were small holds outside the cracks that gave me just enough leverage to move my hand or reposition a foot quite easily to make the crux way easier that I initially thought, and I felt like a complete goober for ever saying it.  Again, my initial expression of the point probably wasn't clear enough.

 

And I think that is ok, and the opinion of person 1 is just as valuable as the opinion of person 2, and neither one should be given much weight. They both should be just one vote out of, hopefully, 100s. But you are not going to get 100s of votes, unless everyone has to put in their vote. AND not face a close scrutiny for it. The redriverclimbing comments I linked don’t bother me much. But I do think that seeing stuff like that absolutely discourages other people from providing input.

And, ego being what it is, you will see people much more willing to put in “this route is soft! Felt barely 12a”, and a lot fewer people willing to say “this felt really hard”, if their names are showing next to the comment. 

This is a really important point you made.  This is the one area that consensus grading doesn't work.  I have been guilty of this on many, many occasions.  Ego is a mfkr.  Especially as a newer climber, and particularly when I was first hanging out with guys (and girls) climbing on what I thought were impossible holds and routes, I would NEVER grade something way harder than what everyone else thought.  Nowadays though, I think I try to be as accurate as I can (with years and years of experience and climbing on highly varied terrain comes more confidence in one's opinion I think)- meaning if I cruise something that's graded harder than I think it was, I don't automatically downgrade it, and if I think something has a stopper move way above the stated grade, I bump it up to what I think it truly felt like.  I try to put myself in the headspace of a new leader or a new crack climber, or as if that grade were my max when I'm grading.  There are also routes that are graded well within my limit that I have no hope of sending.  Ever.  Usually they're dihedrals that are blank except for foot chips that are 60 inches apart (or more) on opposing walls, or anything requiring ring locks.  I avoid grading routes that I know exploit my weaknesses, because I know people that are flexible and/or have mastered the wizardry of making something stick in the green Camalot range (without having freakishly thin hands) can climb those routes and make the grade accurate.

At the end of the day though, and to my benefit, I have all but let grades go.  As a result, I've one fallen first try, then redpointed at least one route that is 5 or 6 letter grades above my usual onsight level, and had much less anxiety.  This sounds a bit bodhisattva of me, hopefully not to an offensive degree, but I think most people would benefit from the same perspective concerning route and boulder grades.  They truly are subjective, and the further one is from being Lynn HIll or Tommy Caldwell, meaning flexibility for days, endless amounts of dedication and motivation, fingers that can turn coal into diamonds and the ability to read routes as if they chiseled them with their own hands, the more subjective grades are.  That's my experience at least.

I'm glad dickish comments don't bother you, especially from anonymous troglodytes that derive enjoyment from denigrating people, and I'll take this opportunity again to encourage everyone to input into the consensus system- the more input the better.

One obvious solution, to me, is that on those routes where a high bolt placement makes a route not just a bit harder but straight up dangerous - why not simply reach out to the FA party and ask for permission to move the bolt 9-12 inches, if possible?

More obvious to me, as I’m 6’2”, and have placed thousands of bolts, is to carry a stiffie if you’re height compromised, and instead of trying to contact the FA to ask permission to move the bolt down 9-12 inches, get a lap link and some chain and hang it off the hanger for all shorter people to clip easily. No permission needed.

There are situations where a 6’2” climber is in danger of hitting a ledge and injuring an ankle, if they place a protection bolt so a shorter climber can easily clip it. Bigger climbers weigh more, and stretch the rope more also.

A chain extension protects both tall and short climbers with the original bolt placement. Moving the bolt down is more work, calls for FA approval, unnecessarily scars the rock, changes the history aspect, and in certain situations makes the moves more hazardous for tall people.

Big Redwrote:

My lord, that's embarrassing and bordering on harassment. But "the climbing community is welcoming to everybody" or something like that...   

One thing I know about the climbing community is that there is lots of debate about many things. I don't see how disagreeing with someone is saying they aren't welcome.

Women can hold their own in a debate. We don't need white knights to protect us.

Astrid Reywrote:

One thing I know about the climbing community is that there is lots of debate about many things. I don't see how disagreeing with someone is saying they aren't welcome.

Women can hold their own in a debate. We don't need white knights to protect us.

FWIW I think disagreements are great, but anonymous comments like "Shut up already lena, no one cares that you're short" are just obnoxious bullying. At the very least they should pretend it's Facebook and put their name behind the troll.

Dan Schmidtwrote:

FWIW I think disagreements are great, but anonymous comments like "Shut up already lena, no one cares that you're short" are just obnoxious bullying. At the very least they should pretend it's Facebook and put their name behind the troll.

Anonymous insults are childish and stupid but it's not really bullying unless there is an imbalance of power. Go to Elon Musk's twitter and there are random people that insult him all day with comments, does that make him a victim? I don't know Lena but I know she is an accomplished climber that is respected here, someone recently even mentioned her name on a list of most respected contributors. She also is not shy about her own opinions of others. So to say those comments mean that Lena or women are not welcome is nonsense, and ironically condescending toward strong women.

Astrid Reywrote:

Anonymous insults are childish and stupid but it's not really bullying unless there is an imbalance of power. Go to Elon Musk's twitter and there are random people that insult him all day with comments, does that make him a victim? I don't know Lena but I know she is an accomplished climber that is respected here, someone recently even mentioned her name on a list of most respected contributors. She also is not shy about her own opinions of others. So to say those comments mean that Lena or women are not welcome is nonsense, and ironically condescending toward strong women.

My point is really just that the insults are childish and stupid. :) And while I wasn't the one who mentioned it, I know that obnoxious comments dissuade some people from contributing, which makes them worth calling out for me (regardless of the identity dynamic) because I value quality contributions and fewer trolls.

My guess would be that we (women) literally don’t care. You can call it anything you want. V14, 5.8-, only I know how hard it was for ME. I recently sent a V6, a few weeks prior I sent my first V4 and V5 in the same month, it was not a V6. It was easier (for me) than the V4 next to it. But hell, do I care if it was your V6? No, no fucks could be given. Will I post a photo on the gram of me climbing “my first V6!” No, cause it wasn’t my first V6, but it was somebodies V6, not mine. One day, when I send MY first V6, I’ll totally post it to the gram.