Grades- your vote counts!

Hi ladies, 

Why do you not ‘vote’ on a grade for routes you send?

The overwhelming majority of people contributing to the opinions of routes here on MP identify as males. Women often contribute a tick and occasionally a star or five to a route, but hardly ever a suggested grade. Why? 

I have theories. One, MP is only for crusty old men haha  ! Another is that perhaps all women agree 100% on all of the routes’ grades. Unlikely! One male theorized that women don’t send and thus aren’t morally allowed to grade the route until they send... hmmm... again, unlikely! Are women too shy to grade routes? Do they feel like they will be scorned if they downgrade (poor male egos) or upgrade (will I be ridiculed and seen as not strong enough)? What are your reasons for NOT giving your public opinion on a route grade?

Here is why I think it matters: your opinion is valuable information to climbers like me! I directly benefit from knowing who has climbed a route, and how hard they think it is. For example, in Eldorado Springs if Layton Kor (~6’5”) has the FA on a 5.11 R/X route and only people 6’4” and taller have repeated it, I’m not going to try that route. I’ve been sandbagged countless times on Kor routes, and though it is character building, it can also be dangerous. Nowadays, on all Kor routes, I add a full number grade to prepare myself for a realistic-feeling onsight attempt. However, if a shorter person or child left an opinion, I could more accurately gauge how that Kor route might feel for someone like me.

Gauging climbing difficulty on hard trad lines is a realm where opinions are helpful. An excellent example is Sacred Cow, in Indian Creek. Steve Hong established the line at a whopping 5.13-. It has since been downgraded on MP to 5.12c, and as low as 12a by a lady in the comments section (note: NOT on the opinions... why?). 12a or 12a/b is actually a realistic grade for how it felt for me. I have perfect sized hands for this #0.75-#1 camalot crack. However, 13a is a very realistic grade for Dr. Hong or other males with gigantic hands and a solid rack of forged friends. This route, like many others, is graded by men and women on 8a, but this system is irrelevant considering it rewards climbers for difficult climbing, leading to inflation. Overall, in trad climbing, size matters and no matter what the suggested FA grade is, I only care about what people my size think. Typically, people my size  (I’m 5’2”) are ladies and children: the least frequent commenters on MP grades.

I leave grade opinions on routes where someone small may find my input really interesting. I don’t grade every route I’ve sent. Sometimes, however, I’m by far the shortest or littlest person to have done a hard trad line, and often the grade does not reflect my experience. It’s close! But not exact. Therefore, I humbly ask the ladies here to vote on grades, not in the comments, but on the opinions option if your experience was different than that of the FA or of very large humans. Please leave me a comment below as to why or why not you vote. I’m simply curious! Thank you so much for reading this and I look forward to reading your opinions!!!  

Layton Kor (6’5”) and Lynn Hill (5’2”) at an AAC event circa 2008. Notice the hands on that fella! RIP.

My partner is 6’6”. We don’t share beta   

Best post of this young year! Another could be "why don't more women put up FAs?" My wife has discovered the power drill and put holes in every room now to hang shelves and photos. The act of drilling is not the obstacle. It's the physically easiest part of route development. Takes 30 to 80 seconds for 3/8 by 3 and 3/8 inch bolts on my local basalt. But I digress.

My 10 year daughter is about 4 foot 10 inches and is getting more into climbing. In the gym, the setters tell me they make an effort to not have "reachy" moves that short climbers would get shut down by, so she can get up some 11s with no falls, and is mock leading 10s. But outside she can run into shutdown reach moves on a 5.8 So, is that route really 5.8 only if you are, say, 5 foot 2 or taller? Yeah yeah we all know Lynn Hill will get up the 5.8 by superior smearing and lockoff skills, but it might be harder than 5.8 for her all the same, so of course i tell my daughter she needs to use her feet differently (be like Lynn) or try using an unlikely intermediate (and yes it will seem harder than 5.8).

Of course, it would be unmanageable and ridiculous to have multiple grades for each route depending on your height or - as said above - the width of your hands! But more representation and comments from women would help all of us see a route from various perspectives and pick appropriate routes knowing what we are in for both difficulty and safety wise.  

I'm just under 5', old, and a pretty crappy climber, lol! 

I "vote" on grades, sometimes, because I feel I have the experience to do so. Usually, it is on something that doesn't have much input yet, to help it get to consensus. I don't base it on how hard it is for me, exactly, but weigh it against other climbs I've done at the grade. City of Rocks is a good yardstick for me, I've done enough to have a good feel for the place, and, extend that out. How does this thing I just climbed stack up to the really popular route?

What I think is more useful?

Route comments. That's where I would definitely mention that, at my height, the start is tough, or the gd effing anchors are out of reach for me, from what is clearly the last stance for the tall dude who put it up way back when. Would I up the grade for that? No, because I'm short, an outlier, even for women. It's still useful to know it will be a hang to clean situation if you are my height, and maybe a poor, or even dangerous, route to lead, with anchors needing a move or two more, where the holds may not exist, especially at the consensus grade for average dudes. 

Love those pics, too!

Best, Helen

I don’t know how you figured out that most women do not grade the routes they climb, because a lot of people use user names that don’t identify gender.

I do grade routes when I think the grade is significantly different. I’ve graded both up and down. But if something is graded 10c and it felt like 10b or 10d to me, I’m not going to bother grading it most of the time because that’s just a silly quibble about normal variation. But if it feels harder because of a series of moves which are clearly height dependent, I will up grade that and make a comment about reach. The most common circumstance where I downgrade routes is where I have done tons of routes of a certain style or grade and it seems clear to me that the people grading the route, for whatever reason, are just missing something. 

My guess is that the majority of MP users are probably male, and so the graders are too. Here’s my personal experience with grading: As a 5’1” climber, I almost always upgrade. Sometimes I do it and feel strongly, other times I do it to fight the sandbaggers, but often I do it for the short folx. I have downgraded only once , and I confess I think the route just fit my body. But I didn’t start grading routes — and I especially didn’t start universally upgrading — until I started climbing 12s (an arbitrary mark of fitness in these parts) because I felt like an imposter. I’m guessing lots of people feel the same way. And so the folx who don’t feel like imposters, regardless of gender, will offer their opinions and their voices will be heard. This may be because they genuinely feel they deserve to have a voice because that’s what life has taught them. It may be because, due to their climbing prowess, they feel comfortable publicly owning their level of struggle on a climb because they otherwise feel like they’re considered strong. There may be folx who grade who don’t struggle with knowing their opinion will be public and thus subject to scrutiny, with their achievements open to judgement. I know I’ve watched my male climbing partner bolt and FA a route that’s out of my wheelhouse and then agonize over grading it because he doesn’t want it to be downgraded but also doesn’t want to look like a sandbagger. Climbing and egos are strange bedfellows and who can know exactly why? But I’m glad someone is bringing this up for us to talk about. And I love the idea of disclosing reachy moves in the comments. 

I go back and forth on this. I used to put the grade votes more often in the past. I rarely do now, unless my opinion is more than a letter grade off the consensus. I have both up- snd down- graded routes in the past.

I don’t check the details of various route grade votes on MP, before deciding to climb the route, and, anyhow, unless I know the person who put in the vote, their grade opinion is not particularly useful to me. I would ask a personal opinion of people whose climbing style I know well, and who know my climbing, if I really wanted individualized advice.

Otherwise, Consensus is good enough for a ballpark, and stakes are relatively low in single pitch sport climbing, which is the bulk of what I do. If I get on a route that is so much harder than the expected grade, that I simply cannot do it, I would stick clip, or leave a biner.

I do think that the route grade input should be mandatory, if you want to add a tick, regardless of whether it’s a private tick, or a public tick. And I think the grade and quality votes should be anonymous. Redriverclimbing.com has done a good job with route grade/quality charts. If not with route comments, that often go crazy.

I wish MP had charts like these. A route with a very wide grade spread would likely have a body-type-dependent moves than a route with a narrow grade distribution.

Yes, size matters.

Not sure how many of Kor's partners were tall but his partner in the FA of Naked Edge certainly was and still is.

More input on grades (or more comments about difficulty based upon height, etc) helps everyone in the community.

If you climb with kids it can be helpful to other families to see a note in comments about the kids' comfort and ease on said route.  

The average adult height for women is 5'4", for men it's 5'9". 

Very few route developers were women, bitd, even the few who are the FAs didn't install the bolts, most of the time. I'm sure they're out there, but still in the minority. So are women routesetters, guides, SAR, rope techs, arborists......still a minority. Trades, too. The super simple answer why? Those are all apprentice/mentor type "jobs", and often generational too. Previous generations, it was less common to do nontraditional things. Now? Have at it! But it takes time. If you never see someone like you doing something? That thought may never even enter your head to give it a shot. Once that lightbulb goes off? Game on!!

This is part of what I love about climbing.

Yeah, those anchors might happen to be out of my reach.....but any body that wants to, can take a crack at it. Any way they want, partnered with anyone who's agreeable to it.

And we'll all cheer when you try!

I'm fine with leaving developing to who ever gets to it, and fine with consensus grading that could be "skewed" far away from my height, which is far off the bell curve. What it needs to do, is be appropriate to the other climbs in that area. It's up to me, to suss out a new place, get a feel for the grades, and perhaps even sort it out by FAs. That definitely informs me at City of Rocks. Who put the thing up, and what decade, makes a big difference to how spicy it is for the rest of us! Or that single word in the Bingham book, "adventure"!   

Best, Helen

ETA, Lena, I like being able to see if something popular here has been scored by people I know. Knowing that person, also informs my opinion of a route's difficulty for me. 

This is a really interesting question! Males make up the large percent of active MP users (disproportionately to the climbing community), and in my observation the general tone of route comments/forum posts/etc leaves something to be desired from the perspective of inclusivity. On a subconscious level, this has made me less willing to share my opinion because I start to feel like an imposter and doubt the value and validity of my opinions and prefer to just be a ‘lurker’ (to be clear, this alll happens on a subconscious level until I really start to parse it out). Now that you’ve brought this to my awareness, I do see more value in rating routes and think I will be interested in doing this more.

(Thanks for the tip about sacred cow, definitely adding that to my list)

Honestly, I've never even thought to vote. I usually look at the grade, read the comments for gear beta or something, and hope for the best. I do tend to avoid leading routes that say, "harder for short people". I'm 5'3" with a -4 ape index so while I'm near average for height, I still can't reach a darn thing. On rock, I do get annoyed when a moderate 5.8 turns out having some obscure 5.10 intermediate move because I couldn't reach the nice jug, but what really really annoys me is...bolting. We all can probably agree that bolting is primarily male dominated, as is FAs and climbing in general.

I'm primarily a trad climber mainly because there have been enough inaccessible/uncomfortable/dangerous bolt placements created with only taller humans in mind that have completely shut me down. If a 6'2" tall human placed a bolt from a great clipping stance to protect a future crux move, and the bolt is simply at their face level, there's no way I'd be able to reach the hanger and pull the next crux moves safely. Sometimes the next move is also within decking or ledge fall potential, rendering the move dangerous if unprotected. Non-inclusive bolt placement also just makes the route less fun. Sometimes bolt placements are made due to rock quality, but more often than not, it's simply too high and moving it 6" down is still in good rock. I guess this is a bit tangent to what your primary post is about, but I think it's still somewhat relevant. We need more diversity in people who route develop and route developers need to get a wider diversity of opinions before drilling into rock. It's probably worth writing a comment about, "This route is bolted high" - as a warning for shorter folks.

A bit more on topic, your sentence: "Do they feel like they will be scorned if they downgrade (poor male egos) or upgrade (will I be ridiculed and seen as not strong enough)? " Strikes a chord: How many smaller folks on here, have sent a route that shut down larger folks (usually crimpy, roofs, small cracks) and have had their send attributed to them simply "being smaller?" Without trying to exclude non-binary folks, smaller people are typically women and larger people are usually men. What I observe a lot, is that if a woman can't send a route that a man can, she's typically just like "damn, got to to get stronger" compared to when a man can't send a route that a woman can. He is usually way more dismissive of her strength, "You only sent that because you have small hands." Nah man, she's also strong as fuck. Maybe some smaller people are so dismissed so they don't feel like they're allowed an opinion/rating/comment.

Also, one comment that I absolutely hate is: "Ah well Lynn Hill is only 5'2" so you should be able to do it if you're short!" Yeah man, Lynn Hill is also a professional climber and one of the 0.1% of all climbers. I'm a regular human trying to have a good time. Tommy Caldwell is your height, why can't you send the 5.14?

That all said, I will definitely put more attention into rating routes as well as contributing to comments. I consume and highly value comments especially from smaller folks, I should contribute as well. I think you brought in some phenomenal points. Thank you for bringing this up. Grades are SO arbitrary. 

bryanswrote:

Of course, it would be unmanageable and ridiculous to have multiple grades for each route depending on your height or - as said above - the width of your hands! But more representation and comments from women would help all of us see a route from various perspectives and pick appropriate routes knowing what we are in for both difficulty and safety wise.  

I actually think it’s pretty reasonable, and you get there by having people publicly suggest honest grades. Then you just have to skim the tick list. (And not to overengineer it, but you could probably automate flagging routes as morpho by looking at the suggesting grade distribution plus/minus its relationship with the graders’ gender, height, etc.)

RE: “the grade” — I think it’s reasonably common for apparent difficulty to vary a lot based on reach, at least in bouldering, so it’s worth flagging if possible. Also worth remembering that a single number won’t necessarily tell you that much, so if your goal is to help people find appropriate routes it’s good to also comment / provide some free-form context. 

Amy and rodent, have you ever considered bolting routes yourself?

Also, Amy, if you didn't bring a hammer up there, how did you know the rock was good where you thought the bolt should have been?

I continue to love this thread. I'm 6 feet and I drilled my first bolt in 2005. I probably only took into account varying climber height around I'm guessing 2012 or 2013. Just being honest. The issue was not on my radar, and none of my partners - most in the 5-5 to 5-10 range - ever brought it up. But once I became aware of the height/clipping issue I would find where I would want a bolt but then drill the hole about 9 to 12 inches closer to the intended clipping hold(s). Obviously when rock quality varies this isn't possible. And yes, you need a hammer to know if the rock is solid, as was said above. Looks can be deceiving.

I guess I just wanted to point out this isn't an issue of climbing not being inclusive or that there is a sinister cabal of bolters out to screw shorter people. The issue may not just have come up. 

One obvious solution, to me, is that on those routes where a high bolt placement makes a route not just a bit harder but straight up dangerous - why not simply reach out to the FA party and ask for permission to move the bolt 9-12 inches, if possible? Unless you really just want to feel like a victim, and oppressed by the man/system, or to have an excuse for not trying or sending a route, just ask about moving a bolt. You would be amazed how many FA climbers 1) never realized there was an issue, 2) could care less about the bolt being moved a foot and 3) would be pleased that their route is now better for more people to enjoy. TLDR: Squeaky wheel gets the grease, and there is no reason why a shorter climber can't politely and reasonably broach the topic of moving a key bolt. Problem solved?

d c rwrote:

Amy and rodent, have you ever considered bolting routes yourself?

Also, Amy, if you didn't bring a hammer up there, how did you know the rock was good where you thought the bolt should have been?

Yes, I absolutely would love to get into route development, extremely interested. I need an opportunity and have only recently been starting to seek them.

Sometimes you only really need to look. (Also got opinions of a climbing partner who is an avid developer/experienced bolter).

One obvious solution, to me, is that on those routes where a high bolt placement makes a route not just a bit harder but straight up dangerous - why not simply reach out to the FA party and ask for permission to move the bolt 9-12 inches, if possible? Unless you really just want to feel like a victim, and oppressed by the man/system, or to have an excuse for not trying or sending a route, just ask about moving a bolt.

I don't have the means to move the bolt myself. But also, if I did that to every bolt I've ever felt like that -- it would be a whole hell lot of new bolting. It's easier (and more productive) to simply spread awareness. "Hey, it'd be nice if you thought about this next time you drill into the rock. Please consider these issues! Thanks!"

Ry Cwrote:

Yes, I absolutely would love to get into route development, extremely interested. I need an opportunity and have only recently been starting to seek them.

Sometimes you only really need to look. (Also got opinions of a climbing partner who is an avid developer/experienced bolter).

I don't have the means to move the bolt myself. But also, if I did that to every bolt I've ever felt like that -- it would be a whole hell lot of new bolting. It's easier (and more productive) to simply spread awareness. "Hey, it'd be nice if you thought about this next time you drill into the rock. Please consider these issues! Thanks!"

You don't need to move it yourself. In most areas there is a guy (usually a guy, just being honest) dying to drill. Like, he would literally pay for the pleasure of moving a bolt with the blessing of the FA party. If you want to feel more connected to your climbing community, the process of identifying a bolt to to move and getting it moved will really deepen your connection. You don't also need to address every inconvenient bolt - but for the obviously and objectively dangerous bolt placements (the ones "everybody" knows about), nobody is going to argue as long as the FA agrees, and the community will generally be glad for the change. Again, problem solved - unless you only want to complain and have an excuse not to lead said route! :)

I don't usually post my opinion of the grade unless I know the area and style well, and disagree with the consensus. 

I do often leave comments if I feel a bolt or move is reachy, or if someone else says it is reachy for short folks and I don't feel that way (I'm 5'2"). Commenting about a reachy move or bolt isn't complaining, it is stating a fact that others may want to know before they attempt the climb themselves. And, if someone does decide to move or place bolts, maybe they will consider this. 

bryanswrote:

I continue to love this thread. I'm 6 feet and I drilled my first bolt in 2005. I probably only took into account varying climber height around I'm guessing 2012 or 2013. Just being honest. The issue was not on my radar, and none of my partners - most in the 5-5 to 5-10 range - ever brought it up. But once I became aware of the height/clipping issue I would find where I would want a bolt but then drill the hole about 9 to 12 inches closer to the intended clipping hold(s). Obviously when rock quality varies this isn't possible. And yes, you need a hammer to know if the rock is solid, as was said above. Looks can be deceiving.

I guess I just wanted to point out this isn't an issue of climbing not being inclusive or that there is a sinister cabal of bolters out to screw shorter people. The issue may not just have come up. 

One obvious solution, to me, is that on those routes where a high bolt placement makes a route not just a bit harder but straight up dangerous - why not simply reach out to the FA party and ask for permission to move the bolt 9-12 inches, if possible? Unless you really just want to feel like a victim, and oppressed by the man/system, or to have an excuse for not trying or sending a route, just ask about moving a bolt. You would be amazed how many FA climbers 1) never realized there was an issue, 2) could care less about the bolt being moved a foot and 3) would be pleased that their route is now better for more people to enjoy. TLDR: Squeaky wheel gets the grease, and there is no reason why a shorter climber can't politely and reasonably broach the topic of moving a key bolt. Problem solved?

Not really.

If it was just one bolt? Sure. Anchors? Maybe.

But if it's the route as a whole? A lot of stuff bitd was put in pretty casually, especially on easier stuff. They didn't waste money putting five or six bolts on it, if 4 were sufficient. If you're worried about falling on a 5.6,7,8 climb, then you have no business in the mountains in the first place, right?

My local stuff is flat out hazardous, with the bolting, if you climb at those lower grades. 

But?

To "fix" that?

You'd totally destroy climbing history. They would have to be redone top to bottom, to add a bolt or 2 and close up the spacing.

No thanks. Those people are my age, most of them, and some are my friends. I'd far rather it stays as is. 

Now?

Anyone who is a developer needs to assume they are developing not just for now, and a dinky group of locals, but for the future, and that "community" is all of us.

Best, Helen

Old lady Hwrote: Now?

Anyone who is a developer needs to assume they are developing not just for now, and a dinky group of locals, but for the future, and that "community" is all of us.

!!!!!!!!! What is done is done, but new routes are being put up all the time.

Smaller folks and more women are climbing now, if someone is going to put up a route in hopes that others will climb it, why not make it accessible and safe for everyone of all sizes?
 

Old lady Hwrote:

Not really.

If it was just one bolt? Sure. Anchors? Maybe.

But if it's the route as a whole? A lot of stuff bitd was put in pretty casually, especially on easier stuff. They didn't waste money putting five or six bolts on it, if 4 were sufficient. If you're worried about falling on a 5.6,7,8 climb, then you have no business in the mountains in the first place, right?

My local stuff is flat out hazardous, with the bolting, if you climb at those lower grades. 

But?

To "fix" that?

You'd totally destroy climbing history. They would have to be redone top to bottom, to add a bolt or 2 and close up the spacing.

No thanks. Those people are my age, most of them, and some are my friends. I'd far rather it stays as is. 

Now? 

Anyone who is a developer needs to assume they are developing not just for now, and a dinky group of locals, but for the future, and that "community" is all of us.

Best, Helen

I'm not talking about destroying climbing history at the City or Smith Rock or anywhere else. Why does the internet always take your words and twist them?

I'll repeat: I wasn't talking about going around "fixing" every bolt someone complains about. But if there is a single bolt in a bad spot that could be moved to good rock and if a short person cares enough and if the FA agrees, the shorter person can use their communication skills to get that bolt moved. That is all. A solution exists, so don't whine unless you have done the above and the FA still rejected the request!

I agree that climbing isn't and shouldn't be 100% safe and there are many routes with runouts I won't accept, and won't do, which in its impact upon me is the same as not being able to clip a bolt I can't reach (i.e. I don't want to do the moves without a bolt clipped). I don't do those routes, that's all. None of us have the right to lead every route somebody else labored to put up. That's why you don't get to move a bolt or add one without the permission of the FA.