Is JTree a free for all dumpster fire?

Reese Stanleywrote:

If they aren't breaking the law, or park/local rules, what's the issue?  Everyone has an equal right to climb, it shouldn't matter what they pull up to the crag in as long as they're following the rules like everyone else.  The only way this is could be seen as "terrible for climbing" is in the sense that overcrowding/access is being threatened due to the heightened popularity of climbing but, that has little to nothing to do with how/what people sleep in.  Vans, RVs and roof tents are not new.  Was Chris Sharma contributing to climbing becoming "terrible" in his RV while they filmed Rampage?  I don't think so.

This post boils down to "people who have the means to afford nicer accommodations while camping are somehow entitled and contributing to making climbing terrible", which is just as bad as saying "people who do not have the means to afford nice accommodations while camping are entitled and contributing to making climbing terrible".  Neither statement is true nor helpful.  Everyone should have the same access and nobody should be given preferential treatment.  Everyone should be punished for breaking the rules/laws, whether they're in a tent or a van.  Camping illegally in an obvious pull out is bad practice regardless of the method, is what I'm getting at.  

Perhaps I'm misinterpreting what you're saying (and I apologize if I am) but, I'm struggling to see another way to view this post.

Except they are violating park rules, unless they're backcountry camping (which doesnt involve vehicles) or are in a campsite. There's free BLM camping 20 minutes from the west entrance of the park if folks don't wanna pay to camp or can't get a site. This is a national park and an incredible climbing resource. I'd hate to see the park service crack down because some folks don't wanna deal with the hassle of driving a handful of minutes.

That said, if people wanna stay in their cars, vans, whatever, I'm all for it, I lived that life for almost a year and it's absolutely lovely and worth it. Just do it better and with respect for those around you (the royal you, not an attack on you personally)

Unrelated, yes, during peak times Jtree is a shitshow. People jumping the berms to park in the desert, bringing their dogs far beyond where they're permitted (respect the wildlife, geez), trash strewn about, all kinds of shenanigans. I'd say overall, or by a large percentage, climbers aren't the problem. Had a woman walk up and grab the live side of a toprope and try to pose like she was holding my climber up and had the audacity to get bent when I firmly told her to get her hands off my rope. Things get nuts out here sometimes 

Justa Murphywrote:

Except they are violating park rules, unless they're backcountry camping (which doesnt involve vehicles) or are in a campsite. There's free BLM camping 20 minutes from the west entrance of the park if folks don't wanna pay to camp or can't get a site. This is a national park and an incredible climbing resource. I'd hate to see the park service crack down because some folks don't wanna deal with the hassle of driving a handful of minutes.

I don't think you or the OP ever established that the people in the original photo of the Subaru with their tent open were "violating park rules." There's definitely no rule in JTNP about popping open your RTT in a day-use area or any other legal parking spot to have a nice stretch and or even a nap during the day. "Camping" means spending the night, overnight, in the park. And is limited to legal campsites or back country areas. 

Andrew Ricewrote:

I don't think you or the OP every established that the people in the original photo of the Subaru with their tent open were "violating park rules." There's definitely no rule in JTNP about popping open your RTT in a day-use area or any other legal parking spot to have a nice stretch and or even a nap during the day. "Camping" means spending the night, overnight, in the park. And is limited to legal campsites or back country areas. 

I'm no Sherlock Holmes but I can tell that picture was taken early in the morning. 

soft cruxwrote:

I'm no Sherlock Holmes but I can tell that picture was taken early in the morning. 

Unless you can tell that they slept overnight there, however, you've got no proof they broke park rules. That spot is one of the busiest places in JTNP and within sight of anyone driving by, including rangers. I don't think you'd last more than a couple hours like that overnight without smokey bear stopping and kicking you out. 

Andrew Ricewrote:

Unless you can tell that they slept overnight there, however, you've got no proof they broke park rules. That spot is one of the busiest places in JTNP and within sight of anyone driving by, including rangers. I don't think you'd last more than a couple hours like that overnight without smokey bear stopping and kicking you out. 

Ho mann.... I'm no Sherlock Holmes but you must be Atticus Finch! They could have shown up early in the morning, parked and then opened up their tent... so much reasonable doubt!

Pro tip for JTree bandit camping: The rangers don't patrol shit at night. They go home when their shift ends, have a drink, and are in bed by 10pm like anyone else with a day job. Do you really think they are working the night shift so that they can catch a few OB campers?

I've arrived in the morning to see full-on campsites in day use areas: tents, campfires, BBQs. No ranger busted them the night before because no ranger cares enough to stay up all night.

I find Indian Cove to be quieter on busy days like this!

A V wrote:

 But I think all of it can be attributed to either psychos shooting into tents or things like religious fundies killing climbers at Nanga Parbat base camp or kidnapping pro climbers and their crew.

Good book, too. That's a REAL DUMPSTER FIRE^^^^^

Can't think of anybody else getting shot over access encroachments, but I'm curious to see if anybody can prove me wrong

Just Louie saying he was shot in Tensleep ;-) (encroachments being on their wall). Seems highly unlikely but after reading comments on MP, I am open to thinking anything is possible!

Teton Climberwrote:

Just Louie saying he was shot at in Tensleep ;-) (encroachments being on their wall). Seems highly unlikely but after reading comments on MP, I am open to thinking anything is possible!

climbers-shot-at-in-little-cottonwood-canyon-utah

Allen Sandersonwrote:

climbers-shot-at-in-little-cottonwood-canyon-utah

Gentiles.

I think a dude was actually killed in Ten Sleep, yes?  Some psycho on a multi-state crime spree. Really sad. A traveling climber from overseas, I think.

BAdwrote:

I think a dude was actually killed in Ten Sleep, yes?  Some psycho on a multi-state crime spree. Really sad. A traveling climber from overseas, I think.

Wasn't killed. Shot in his tent near the bottom of the old road if we are referring to the same incident. I believe. The shooter was not a climber. Happened about a decade or so ago, before the crowds. 

I’m a massive curmudgeon and this instagram guy puts my grouchiness to shame. 

The people that claim its just consumeristic jealousy instead of a real access issue can easily make any minor curmudgeon grouchy. 

soft cruxwrote:

Ho mann.... I'm no Sherlock Holmes but you must be Atticus Finch! They could have shown up early in the morning, parked and then opened up their tent... so much reasonable doubt!

Okay, Sherlock, out of much curiosity. How do you know it's early morning? Sure, the guy is standing in the shadow of something really large. But if you look out into the foliage, there aren't long shadows, that you would see in the early morning or late evening. What time is it okay by you to open up a RTT without it being camping?

Thanks for the tips on how to pirate camp inside the park. I'm sure everyone on MP will appreciate that. 

Andrew Ricewrote:

Okay, Sherlock, out of much curiosity. How do you know it's early morning? Sure, the guy is standing in the shadow of something really large. But if you look out into the foliage, there aren't long shadows, that you would see in the early morning or late evening. What time is it okay by you to open up a RTT without it being camping?

Thanks for the tips on how to pirate camp inside the park. I'm sure everyone on MP will appreciate that. 

It could be an evening shadow.... looking more closely at the photo I don't know where that exact spot is.  At first glance I thought intersection rock parking lot because some of the other photos show a tent at the base of the ski tracks. But after a second look I don't think that's right. Because of the squared out parking spot it may be an actual campsite but most campsites don't have paved roads. What is causing the shadow? Now I'm curious.

That is Intersection Rock and they are in a trash pickup zone. So they shouldn't be there no matter what time of day. 

They obviously "stealth"-camped b/c they see everyone else doing it (real stealthy, jackasses). Or as Senor Arroz, who wants to provide the generosity of benefits of doubt, would say - maybe they just wanted to take a nap. Weird, b/c the light and shadows clearly indicate MORNING sun. Occam's Razor suggests that they are jackasses, illegally camping (or illegally "parked" at a minimum for Mr Rice), not napping. 

QED

Matt Nwrote:

That is Intersection Rock and they are in a trash pickup zone. So they shouldn't be there no matter what time of day. 

They obviously "stealth"-camped b/c they see everyone else doing it (real stealthy, jackasses). Or as Senor Arroz, who wants to provide the generosity of benefits of doubt, would say - maybe they just wanted to take a nap. Weird, b/c the light and shadows clearly indicate MORNING sun. Occam's Razor suggests that they are jackasses, illegally camping (or illegally "parked" at a minimum for Mr Rice), not napping. 

Nice find. 

So the shadow is from Cyclops rock and the photo was taken early in the morning: https://www.mountainproject.com/map/105720759/cyclops-rock?sun-angles=1

But Andrew has a point... who doesn't like to roll into the park at 5am, park by the dumpster, and snooze in the RTT until the garbage truck arrives?

It's evening light on intersection rock ffs.

Harumpfster Boondogglewrote:

It's evening light on intersection rock ffs.

Sure 'bout that? 

https://www.mountainproject.com/map/105720810/intersection-rock?sun-angles=1 

ffs