Free climb harder via tag lines

shredwardwrote:

Been thinking about using this technique for a while.  Does anyone have pack recommendations?  Small and comfy enough for the hike in, but burly enough for hauling?

I've used the BD creek 20L bag. It's a mini-haul bag allowing the straps to be placed inside the bag. It's worked well on stuff like the Column or RNWFHD.

Alec Baker wrote:

I'm struggling to figure out how someone would stand on a Mescalito or Creek 20. Surely Matt meant a larger bag than that?

I think you're expecting a little much from what he meant by "stand", you're just not sat purely in your harness. You wouldn't want to stand on a creek 20 at all it doesn't have any load bearing webbing like a Mescalito. 

Alec Baker wrote:

I'm struggling to figure out how someone would stand on a Mescalito or Creek 20. Surely Matt meant a larger bag than that?

I actually use a sentinel I think. (Not yellow, smallest green one). It has a strap on the bottom, so you can flip it sideways (clip both the bottom and the top to the anchor) and make a ledge that way. You can also stand on the top but it’s less comfortable (although requires no setup). I have stood on a mescalito too. That one doesn’t have a strap on the bottom, but you can use the lower backpack strap loop to attach to the bottom the anchor.

The express is really really small and the use case for it is pretty narrow. Unless you want all the bags, I probably wouldn’t buy that one. The mescalito and sentinel are pretty similar. The sentinel is just a bit bigger so I can use it as a cragging pack in general and tag it when necessary.

I would say i wind up using the sentinel majority of the time, even when we have the choice of a mescalito.

It’s probably slightly bigger then needed, but you can stuff the unused cams under the lid with ease to prevent them from snagging. Also pulling things out of a fully packed bag is tricky, with a little working room it’s a lot easier not to drop bombs. 

Matt Carrollwrote:

I actually use a sentinel I think. (Not yellow, smallest green one). It has a strap on the bottom, so you can flip it sideways (clip both the bottom and the top to the anchor) and make a ledge that way. You can also stand on the top but it’s less comfortable (although requires no setup). I have stood on a mescalito too. That one doesn’t have a strap on the bottom, but you can use the lower backpack strap loop to attach to the bottom the anchor.

The express is really really small and the use case for it is pretty narrow. Unless you want all the bags, I probably wouldn’t buy that one. The mescalito and sentinel are pretty similar. The sentinel is just a bit bigger so I can use it as a cragging pack in general and tag it when necessary.

I would say i wind up using the sentinel majority of the time, even when we have the choice of a mescalito.

It’s probably slightly bigger then needed, but you can stuff the unused cams under the lid with ease to prevent them from snagging. Also pulling things out of a fully packed bag is tricky, with a little working room it’s a lot easier not to drop bombs. 

According to the Metolius website the Mescalito is the smaller one (24L) vs the express which is 39L

Andrew Schaferwrote:

According to the Metolius website the Mescalito is the smaller one (24L) vs the express which is 39L

Ah nice thanks. Yeah sorry I got those confused. 

Good info Matt. thanks for sharing.

in the few times i've used this method i've done it a bit different as described. 

It is still possible to haul and belay the 2nd up at the same time. Much like belaying two 2nds up. This not only keeps the 2nd safer, and lighter still (no rope solo device needed), but can possibly keep the bag at or near 2nd for easy access (if it gets stuck and if the route doesn't wander). 

Using a 6mm or larger diameter tag.....The trick is to arrange the trax at or near the guide mode bely device (backed up of course) for easier management of brake hand and rope. Start with hauling the tag a few feet or more above the 2nd before they begin climbing. you don't need to separate the ropes either, but instead stack them together as one. a tightly woven sheath rap line is perfect for this setup (PUR line). flip the stack if swapping leads. if flipping, you'll need to swap the tag rope ends with bag and trax. when you're ready for the next pitch, belayer can feed both as one rope but with only the lead line fed through belay device! 

of course this should be practiced before venturing off at your limit.

jcs

jackscoldsweatwrote:

It is still possible to haul and belay the 2nd up at the same time. Much like belaying two 2nds up. This not only keeps the 2nd safer, and lighter still (no rope solo device needed), but can possibly keep the bag at or near 2nd for easy access (if it gets stuck and if the route doesn't wander). 

It's definitely possible and I've done it a number of times. But it isn't especially pleasant or restful for the leader to have to belay and haul at the same time. I've found it to be a bit frantic trying to keep up with both.

I'd also protest the "safer and lighter" benefit of this approach (belaying the 2nd). Following on TR solo is plenty safe, and arguably better/safer than a distracted  belayer who is also trying to haul. And the added weight of bringing TR solo devices is pretty trivial. 

Both approaches work though, so it's mostly a matter of situation and preference.

Andrew Schaferwrote:

According to the Metolius website the Mescalito is the smaller one (24L) vs the express which is 39L

I had and used the smaller 24L one (Mescalito) occasionally for this purpose for several years, up until it got stolen in a classic Seattle car break-in. It works reasonably well if you don't need too much stuff. Has space for water, food, walkoff shoes, and a light layer for two people, but not much more. Think fair-weather Squamish long routes. 

If you were trying a bring more layers and puffies for cold conditions, a bunch of big cams for that one wide pitch, etc - the 24L size would start to be pretty limiting and you'd want a bigger bag.

One hypothetical application where the smaller (24L) haul pack could be quite nice would be a route with a bunch of lower angle easier terrain (where hauling would suck and you'd want to carry the bag), and then a few harder pitches that you'd haul. The 24L bag is reasonably small and comfortable to carry - not much worse than your typical light multipitch pack - and climbing 5.9 pitches with it on is fine. I'd think that doing the same with a 40L haulbag would be less pleasant. 

If/when I get another haul pack, I expect I'll go for the Express or Sentinel. At the moment though I'm not doing the type of climbing that requires this.

JCMwrote:

It's definitely possible and I've done it a number of times. But it isn't especially pleasant or restful for the leader to have to belay and haul at the same time. I've found it to be a bit frantic trying to keep up with both.

I'd also protest the "safer and lighter" benefit of this approach (belaying the 2nd). Following on TR solo is plenty safe, and arguably better/safer than a distracted  belayer who is also trying to haul. And the added weight of bringing TR solo devices is pretty trivial. 

Both approaches work though, so it's mostly a matter of situation and preference.

It's no different than belaying a 2nd and 3rd in guide mode. Both 2nd and 3rd should try their very best to move at the same rate.

the same for the tag line method. You don't treat each rope differently. You don't yard in slack for each rope at separate times. You yard in slack for both ropes at the same time. as soon as the 2nd moves upward creating slack, you take in slack. the distance between climber and bag should for the most part remain the same.

your other point is fair. 

jcs

Matt Carrollwrote:

Tl:dr use a tag line to climb closer to your limit on hard routes 

IMO The tag line is one of the most critical (and underrated) pieces of gear you can use to climb harder on multipitch routes. Having use various manifestations of tagging over the past few years, here are some things I’ve learned. Hopefully you can apply some of them to climb harder on multipitches.

Why tag? 

 If your goal is to climb near your limit on multipitch climbs, wearing a backpack is basically a non-starter. Any steep climbing will be made many x harder wearing a pack, both because you are heavier and also because your center of gravity has changed.

I also find depending on the pack it can be hard to maintain full range of motion. Basically, by definition you cannot climb at limit if wearing a backpack.

Tag selection:

When packing the tag kit I normally make the decision based on rappels. If we are doing some decent number of rappels, bring a “full strength” tag line (6mm) for ease of use. If walk off, or single rope raps etc then I’ll opt for a skimpy micro cord (3-4mm) 

Hauling;

Put a progress capture pulley on top of the tag line (Spock or micro trax), lead with it and try to finish the pitch with one alpine draw left on your harness (not critical). 

When the pitch is done fix the rope for the follower to rope solo and haul the tag bag up. 

For a very light bag, I would just hand over hand the bag. For anything more then trivial weight, I will use the alpine draw to put a Garda hitch on the slack side of the progress capture. Now you can simply kick with your foot in the sling to advance the bag. (If you don’t have a sling but have a few carabiners you can just tie off a large loop of the tag and use that.) 

If the tag used was 4mm cord, I will flake it into a bag like this ( flipandtumble.com/products/…) to prevent any tangles. We have two so the line always stays in a bag. You can leave this on a keychain carabiner.

If the cord is 6mm the follower will tie the bag in short. If the route is steep I will just let one loop dangle down. On a more slabby section, windy day, or flaky terrain, I’ll coil the tag. 

What to tag:

Normally I use a metolious small haul bag to tag. It’s universally applicable, large enough to get your stuff to the base and has a nice side effect of being strong enough to stand on.

Basically if you are at an uncomfortable stance you can stand on the bag (or turn it sideways and made a belay seat from it). This has provided substantial quality of life improvement for trying to send hard pitches with sub-amazing belays. 

I’ve also used fish beef bags and metolious big wall stuff sacks for smaller missions (for example water, a few bars, a shared jacket and some bigger cams).

Make the most of tagging: 

If I’m the leader I generally forgo all extra gear and tag up a belay device etc once the pitch is done. it’s also helpful if you realize you need some cams you didn’t bring on the lead, just tag them up. This has made me way less susceptible to “taking the 4 just in case” syndrome where you end the pitch with 10 cams left on your harness. Minimize the free rides you offer! 

As the follower, same thing. I clip everything on my harness to the tag so I start climbing with the carabiner I was indirect with and that’s it.

Adding a few more pounds to the bag really has no implications when you are tagging and using the Garda to “leg haul”. This (for me at least) means I can bring enough jackets to be comfortable, enough food and water to stay “performing” tighter shoes for a crux pitch, shoes for the walkoff etc. 

Occasionally the bag gets stuck, normally if it’s just a light tagbag you can wiggle it free. If there is a really problematic roof, we will have the second hold onto the end of the tag (bag tied in short) and they can flick with their end to try and clear the roof. 

Normally a 6mm 70m tag will run your about 4lbs, and a 4mm is probably just a pound or two. Plus the weight of a micro or Spock on your harness, it maybe adds a pound or two on the average lead. To me, this is a great price to pay for much easier following, and all day comfort on the wall. 

Closing thoughts: 

Friends don’t let friends belay and friends certainly don’t let friends follow with a pack.

Nathan Hadley photo of jasna climbing hard and tagging the bag so I get a pleasant follow

tagging jackets on liberty bell to stay warm on the darkside

Sounds like aid to me.

abandon moderation wrote:

I always join a ~9.4mm rope and 7mm tag line with an edk and rap on both strands with an atc. My rule is to always use a prussic/autoblock backup on a leg loop with this setup (any time a 7mm rope is going through my atc, really).

Have you had issues with slippage when the thinner rope is the one going through the rap rings? I remember rapping on a 9.8 and ~8 and having the knot creep away from the anchor due to the difference in friction. Not a fan of one rope end coming up to meet me as I rap...

Big Redwrote:

Have you had issues with slippage when the thinner rope is the one going through the rap rings? I remember rapping on a 9.8 and ~8 and having the knot creep away from the anchor due to the difference in friction. Not a fan of one rope end coming up to meet me as I rap...

I use a 9mm rope and a 7mm tag. Never had rope slippage issues (beyond maybe a few inches) but a steep, free hanging rappel might cause some issues, my solution to this is the first fixes the thicker line, raps the fixed line, fixes both lines at the anchor, then the second raps both strands.