Joshua Tree N.P. Heart of Darkness is back OPEN to climbing

Feels like supertopo forum

James Wwrote:

 I’ve never seen NPS or any other park manager intervene like this - interesting precedent.  Seems to open the door to a lawsuit if an anchor elsewhere fails.

Have you ever seen an NPS superintendent that is a climber, mingles with climbers on his own time, and openly discusses the climbing issues in the park with the local guide companies?  The NPS staff at Joshua Tree is special.  Many are climbers.  They are highly informed about climbing issues in the park including re-bolting.  They listen carefully to the inputs of guiding companies and climbers.  They work closely with Friends of Joshua Tree and their Hardware Anchor Replacement Program (HARP).  If Bernadette closes a route so they can fix the anchors, that is likely a well-informed decision and the climbing community should support respect it.

Evan Noronhawrote:

SMCs bolted with rusty button-heads on one of the park’s most popular test piece routes. No problem, eh?

...

I think people seeing that setup and rapping “without a problem”, is in-fact the problem.

Edit: I don’t support land managers stepping in and closing routes. But based on that image alone, if there was a route to do it on, this one seems to be it.

Not all SMC hangers are death hangers and not all ¼" bolts are death traps waiting to pull if you look at them wrong. 

If that bolt was looking at pull out forces there might be an argument, but the way that bolt is placed and the chain going over the edge, this bolt is never going to see anything but shear force, which for this setup is completely fine. And as an anchor bolt it'll never see a lead fall. I'll give you that if someone was to clip into it with their PAS while standing on top and then fell off the edge, it would certainly be of concern. 

The SMC hanger does not look to be of the small batch of sketchy smc death hangers from back in the day. 

Fail Fallingwrote:

this bolt is never going to see anything but sheer force

SHEAR force

please

I have been sitting in on meetings with the JTNP management team and FoJT forums as they navigate this dilemma. It has been a discussion for years now. Who is responsible for the bolts? We all know they are considered "abandoned" once placed. But they rust, the rock erodes, etc. Now the issue, what to do? Leave them for someone who doesn't know better to get hurt? Chop them completely and hope everyone reads updates on MP? Or replace them? The NPS is not doing the replacing. A small, local team of old school climbers are heading this effort and have been for years. The unique thing about this route...it is in wilderness, which means no power drills are allowed. Anyone who has pulled an old bolt in order to use the same hole knows how hard this can be. If this team, who includes a one handed climber who can't use a hand drill, obtained a permit(required and issued by NPS for power drills ANYWHERE in the park) to use a power drill to replace this anchor, this is a huge win! 

The issue still remains, what about the other bolts that may be ready to fail in wilderness? How do the new climbers become educated on spotting bad bolts? JTNP has held many Zoom and in person meetings for all of the climbing community. Friends of JT have posted surveys on this very forum for climbers to fill out. I truly hope every person on this thread who has an opinion on this issue has attended and completed this survey. That is how your voice can be heard. If not, keep your eyes open for when John from FoJT or Bernadette post information that informs us to stay off routes while the rebolting team does their thing. 

**I promise I'm not being snarky or bitchy.** I just know that without background information, this can seem confusing and I figure I can share the little background I know about this specific project.

Not Hobo Greg wrote:

So by that logic, we shouldn’t have stop signs, or mark where we store radioactive waste, ya know, because that’s a slippery slope.

In my honest opinion, we should have a Prahji database for all routes with questionable fixed gear. Once tbe route makes the list, off limits!!! That way the NPS and like minded folks can keep us safe! 

Danny Herrerawrote:

Feels like supertopo forum

HOHMAN!

x15x15wrote:

In my honest opinion, we should have a Prahji database for all routes with questionable fixed gear. Once tbe route makes the list, off limits!!! That way the NPS and like minded folks can keep us safe! 

I'm not gonna be any less than 1000% psyched that when I notice questionable (or at least nonstandard for our times) fixed gear, I can talk to trusted individuals and know that they'll do a fine job replacing it in a collaborative effort with the park service.

The slippery slope arguments are particularly weak and you're kidding yourself if you don't acknowledge we've always been playing a dangerous game. Sure there's been times when I've backed up bolts with gear (Light Sabre comes to mind) or more frequently, replaced rappel tat (Hex Marks the Poot or Morongo Man just yesterday). The last thing I want to worry about is a rusty 1/4 incher and sorry but the high shear to pullout force ratio ain't gonna enter my calculus, even as an engineer, if I'm contemplating a sketchy downclimb. 

P.S. Ms. Regan is right, there are 9,999 other routes in the park !! If you want to try some overhanging jams on a super splitter, swap those pesky thin hands on Heart of Darkness for some burly fist action on "Leave It To Crusher". No bolts up there to worry about! I lowered my partner back to ground off our gear anchor, then she locked off the rope and I rappelled on the single strand off the other side! Now that's individual freedom. 

If the park can close this in the name of safety what's stopping them from adding bolts to R rated climbs or just closing them all together?

If those bolts are sketchy, what will the park think of the dozens on anchors in worse shape that are found around Geology Tour, the Wonderlands, Queen mtn, etc. The Heart of Darkness anchor is substantially better than the bolts on top of Equinox….

Zack Smithwrote:

If those bolts are sketchy, what will the park think of the dozens on anchors in worse shape that are found around Geology Tour, the Wonderlands, Queen mtn, etc. The Heart of Darkness anchor is substantially better than the bolts on top of Equinox….

It would make sense for the park to post warnings but to close the route(s) seems over-bearing.

Zack Smithwrote:

If those bolts are sketchy, what will the park think of the dozens on anchors in worse shape that are found around Geology Tour, the Wonderlands, Queen mtn, etc. The Heart of Darkness anchor is substantially better than the bolts on top of Equinox….

Can confirm!  

While I greatly appreciate the parks effort to preserve the park, especially when you consider the impact the LA gym crowd has had in the last 5-10 years, I think there's a dire need to empower the competent locals to replace existing hardware without so much red tape.  It seems like public safety is a concern of theirs if they're going to close routes, but ironically they're the biggest hurdle in upgrading the current garbage hardware across the park.

When runouts are outlawed, only outlaws will climb PG13, brother.

1/10,000, brothers, 1/10,000.

jt newgardwrote:

I'm not gonna be any less than 1000% psyched that when I notice questionable (or at least nonstandard for our times) fixed gear, I can talk to trusted individuals and know that they'll do a fine job replacing it in a collaborative effort with the park service.

The slippery slope arguments are particularly weak and you're kidding yourself if you don't acknowledge we've always been playing a dangerous game. Sure there's been times when I've backed up bolts with gear (Light Sabre comes to mind) or more frequently, replaced rappel tat (Hex Marks the Poot or Morongo Man just yesterday). The last thing I want to worry about is a rusty 1/4 incher and sorry but the high shear to pullout force ratio ain't gonna enter my calculus, even as an engineer, if I'm contemplating a sketchy downclimb. 

P.S. Ms. Regan is right, there are 9,999 other routes in the park !! If you want to try some overhanging jams on a super splitter, swap those pesky thin hands on Heart of Darkness for some burly fist action on "Leave It To Crusher". No bolts up there to worry about! I lowered my partner back to ground off our gear anchor, then she locked off the rope and I rappelled on the single strand off the other side! Now that's individual freedom. 

There is no slippery slope argument coming from me... I think more routes should be closed due to inadequate hardware!!! So many good climbs should be marked off limits until deemed safe!!! As many imply, there are thousands of safe climbs to choose from, according to them at least...

almostradwrote:

Can confirm!  

While I greatly appreciate the parks effort to preserve the park, especially when you consider the impact the LA gym crowd has had in the last 5-10 years, I think there's a dire need to empower the competent locals to replace existing hardware without so much red tape.  It seems like public safety is a concern of theirs if they're going to close routes, but ironically they're the biggest hurdle in upgrading the current garbage hardware across the park.

This ^^^  With the time and energy that has been wasted on this in this forum along with the resources used by the park service to "close" the route, 10 sets of anchors could have been replaced.  

The park overstepped their boundaries here and I think it’s going to lead to bad things elsewhere, especially where less knowledgeable people are involved.  It’s pandora’s box and the points made above against it are real.  A simple warning posted at the site and signed by anyone but the NPS would have worked fine, worst case.

Giving a few trusted individuals carte-blanche permits to power drill like-like replacement bolts would on the other hand be a more appropriate and helpful response.  Fact is, the power drilling is happening anyway.

x15x15wrote:

There is no slippery slope argument coming from me... I think more routes should be closed due to inadequate hardware!!! So many good climbs should be marked off limits until deemed safe!!! As many imply, there are thousands of safe climbs to choose from, according to them at least...

OK I see x15x15, at first I wasn't sure if the extra !!!!! marks were satirical in nature or implied a genuine concern for safety ...... looks like we're in agreement it's quite an intricate process maintaining safety on such a wide variety of climbs. (Which is the thing I like most about jtree, venturing outside the classics and finding some adventure from time to time, although I never claimed to be a bold climber by any means.)

More drama in this thread than Shakespeare. I guess things get turned up to the max from the safety of the keyboard. But would you be so happy to clip a bendy bolt while runout on some SLIPPERY slab ?? Be honest !!!!!

jt newgardwrote:

More drama in this thread than Shakespeare. I guess things get turned up to the max from the safety of the keyboard. But would you be so happy to clip a bendy bolt while runout on some SLIPPERY slab ?? Be honest !!!!!

Yes. Especially if it's slab as opposed to overhanging since there's no pullout force being applied to the bolt in the case of a fall. 

Even though you're comparing a bendy lead bolt on a runout route with one of two anchor bolts on the top of a climb with chains reaching over the edge. Pretty far apart as two use cases for comparing bolts. 

jt newgardwrote:

More drama in this thread than Shakespeare. I guess things get turned up to the max from the safety of the keyboard. But would you be so happy to clip a bendy bolt while runout on some SLIPPERY slab ?? Be honest !!!!!

I'll clip anything that presents itself, but I'd consider slipping a wire behind the hanger if possible.

Fail Fallingwrote:

Yes. Especially if it's slab as opposed to overhanging since there's no pullout force being applied to the bolt in the case of a fall. 

Even though you're comparing a bendy lead bolt on a runout route with one of two anchor bolts on the top of a climb with chains reaching over the edge. Pretty far apart as two use cases for comparing bolts. 

OK you got me, I agree the cases are pretty far apart :) 

Although the runout route analogy was more in service of the awful SLIPPERY (slope) joke opportunity, the mechanical rigor of your analysis is unimpeachable!

Received an ASCA message during this slow day at work (seems everyone left for holiday already, typical academics) ...... time to pony up, huh? Were those ASCA-brand anchor bolts that I clipped for the Official Route of the 1984 Olympics? Or the ones that kept me off the ledge on North Overhang? Too many safe experiences to count.