1/2" 5-pc hanger debate

This seems to be an ongoing debate (e.g. in the recent threaded rod thread, among others) and no one seems to be able to provide a satisfactory reasoning one way or the other:  Sometimes 1/2" Powers sleeve bolts have been sold/provided (e.g. by Fixe/the ASCA) with 3/8" hangers. The 3/8" hanger setup appears to put the hanger directly on the internal 3/8" stud, whereas the 1/2" hanger appears to load the sleeve/plastic spacer. I've been told "both are fine" and "only the 1/2" hanger is right". I don't have an engineering background and would really like to know which one is ideal. My uneducated hunch is that the 3/8" hanger setup is stronger, but I am guessing there are probably other factors to consider as well. Let the mudslinging begin!

Nowadays all of the hardware that we install in our local LCO replacement work are 1/2" Powers with 1/2" hangers, or glue-ins.

1/2in means 1/2in!

Climb Tech advised me to go 1/2" sleeve bolt with 3/8" hanger. Stating "they fit better". Thats been enough for me, but before I had used 1/2" and 1/2" without known issue.

I'd intuit that 1/2" hanger and 1/2" bolt would be stronger.  1/2" bolt has a higher installation torque.  Sleeve provides additional surface to keep the bolt itself robust and out of contact with a possibly sharp radius on a hanger's thru hole (likely not much of an issue...).  1/2" bolt is a fair bit stronger and the hanger probably has nearly no reduction in load capability with a larger hole.

The 3/8" hanger and 1/2" sleeve bolt does fit snugly...but...with repeated loading over time, is that necessarily a good thing?  Also, probably more likely that the bolt hole won't be perfectly square to the hanger on the surface of the rock.  Having a little bit of play before snugging down the hanger and bolt might be better than a hanger that doesn't fit as flush to the rock because the bolt hole isn't perpendicular to the hanger placement.

I've more worried about using 1/2" hangers with 3/8" bolts...(since I have an imbalance of both).  I'll probably just pony up to 1/2" bolts to fill those hangers...

By placing the hanger between the washer and plastic sleeve, the effective length of the bolt is reduced. It may not engage fully into the cone. As the cone is driven in, it crushes slightly at the bottom. This creates an interference fit with the bolt. If the bolt doesn't reach this point it may not reach full pullout strength and may become a spinner easier.

Brian in SLCwrote:

I'd intuit that 1/2" hanger and 1/2" bolt would be stronger.  1/2" bolt has a higher installation torque.  Sleeve provides additional surface to keep the bolt itself robust and out of contact with a possibly sharp radius on a hanger's thru hole (likely not much of an issue...).  1/2" bolt is a fair bit stronger and the hanger probably has nearly no reduction in load capability with a larger hole.

The 3/8" hanger and 1/2" sleeve bolt does fit snugly...but...with repeated loading over time, is that necessarily a good thing?  Also, probably more likely that the bolt hole won't be perfectly square to the hanger on the surface of the rock.  Having a little bit of play before snugging down the hanger and bolt might be better than a hanger that doesn't fit as flush to the rock because the bolt hole isn't perpendicular to the hanger placement.

I've more worried about using 1/2" hangers with 3/8" bolts...(since I have an imbalance of both).  I'll probably just pony up to 1/2" bolts to fill those hangers...

Good/interesting points. I have had one 1/2" sleeve bolt out of many that I've placed end up not engaging due to the 3/8" hanger and the rock not creating a straight placement, as you suggested. Doesn't seem to be an issue with the 1/2" hangers, which is great as that is all we use now.

"I've more worried about using 1/2" hangers with 3/8" bolts...(since I have an imbalance of both).  I'll probably just pony up to 1/2" bolts to fill those hangers..."

Wait, what?! This sounds like a very loose and not ideal situation...please tell me you're not putting routes up with this pairing

Andy Bennett wrote:

tell that to Fixe and Greg Barnes...

Did they test it?

Dakota from North Dakotawrote:

Climb Tech advised me to go 1/2" sleeve bolt with 3/8" hanger. Stating "they fit better". Thats been enough for me, but before I had used 1/2" and 1/2" without known issue.

I would guess ClimbTech suggests that because of their hanger design. The face the bolt (and hanger, if present) isn’t large enough for the washer to sit flat - it instead sits up on the curve of the hanger. Using a 1/2” bolt without a washer on a 3/8” hanger instead of with a washer in a 1/2” hanger reduces that issue.

Seems to me that their hanger needs redesigned to accommodate 1/2” bolts properly, but maybe it’s not a huge issue.

Most people nearby using the 1/2”x3.5” PB+ use a 3/8” hanger in place of the washer that comes with the bolt so there’s the same amount of thread in the cone at the back.

rocknice2wrote:

By placing the hanger between the washer and plastic sleeve, the effective length of the bolt is reduced. It may not engage fully into the cone. As the cone is driven in, it crushes slightly at the bottom. This creates an interference fit with the bolt. If the bolt doesn't reach this point it may not reach full pullout strength and may become a spinner easier.

All if the 1/2 5-pieces I've used also have the little metal spacer, which can be removed to partially account for this discrepancy. It's not quite the same thickness of an average hanger but pretty close. I've also switched out the washers at times, removing the thicker one that comes with the bolt and using a thinner one from my (extra) 3/8 " wedge bolt supply. Together these work well.

That said, I haven't used any of these bolts for a while, they're just too cost prohibitive for use in the rock I tend to climb on.

Tradibanwrote:

Did they test it?

I have no idea. But years ago, they did provide them as a combo for a while. But Drew and nbrown's ideas ring true. The ASCA provided 1/2" bolts with 3/8" hangers along with a little note to "remove the metal ring between the washer and plastic spacer". Now I understand why. I've had a few 5pc spinners over the years, and I always attributed them to a dull bit or dirty hole. The bolt length discrepancy may actually have been the main or at least an accessory culprit

Who is giving out that bolt and hanger combo at the ASCA? If this is still happening, they should contact Fixe and let them explain why thats a problem.

Andy Bwrote:

Wait, what?! This sounds like a very loose and not ideal situation...please tell me you're not putting routes up with this pairing

Not.

Here's a few photo's to highlight what we're talking about:

Both bolts, long and short, are 1/2" Powers stainless.  Metolius hanger is 3/8", Fixe is 1/2".

Top hanger is 3/8 and has washer removed to maintain thread engagement into the cone:

Below has bottom hanger 3/8" with short 1/2" bolt.  Small spacer removed to maintain thread engagement into cone.

Bottom 3/8 hanger with all hardware from bolt.  Very little thread engagement into cone.

Bottom hanger 3/8 with washer removed and spacer installed.  Better thread engagement into cone.

Anyhow...can kinda see the differences especially between using a long and short bolt.

Cheers!

Brian in SLCwrote:

Not.

Here's a few photo's to highlight what we're talking about:

Both bolts, long and short, are 1/2" Powers stainless.  Metolius hanger is 3/8", Fixe is 1/2".

Top hanger is 3/8 and has washer removed to maintain thread engagement into the cone:

Below has bottom hanger 3/8" with short 1/2" bolt.  Small spacer removed to maintain thread engagement into cone.

Bottom 3/8 hanger with all hardware from bolt.  Very little thread engagement into cone.

Bottom hanger 3/8 with washer removed and spacer installed.  Better thread engagement into cone.

Anyhow...can kinda see the differences especially between using a long and short bolt.

Cheers!

Thats because you should be using the proper hanger. You wouldn't need to remove the washer, which is supposed to remain in place, if you had a 1/2" hanger. The hanger is not a washer.

Matthew Jaggerswrote:

Thats because you should be using the proper hanger. You wouldn't need to remove the washer, which is supposed to remain in place, if you had a 1/2" hanger. The hanger is not a washer.

Why is a washer required?

(I agree with you, just would like to hear your explanation of the reason(s) to use always use a washer.)

Matthew Jaggerswrote:

Who is giving out that bolt and hanger combo at the ASCA? If this is still happening, they should contact Fixe and let them explain why thats a problem.

I'll take just about anyone's words over this than Fixe. To be fair, they make good products but have certainly had their share of fuck-ups (e.g. marketing 10mm bolts as 3/8", faulty chain links, mixed-metal ring hangers, etc). Just saying...

Furthermore, I think being this nitpicky is ironic considering the bolt isn't even manufactured for climbing in the first place. 

rocknice2wrote:

By placing the hanger between the washer and plastic sleeve, the effective length of the bolt is reduced. It may not engage fully into the cone. As the cone is driven in, it crushes slightly at the bottom. This creates an interference fit with the bolt. If the bolt doesn't reach this point it may not reach full pullout strength and may become a spinner easier.

I measure a bunch of washers that come with half inch PB. They are in the range of 3.3 to 3.4mm thick. 

Also measured a bunch of different generation Petzl, Metolious hangers. They are in the range of 3.2 to 3.4 mm. An insignificant amount of difference there. 

The only hangers that I have that measured significantly larger than the washers are ironically Fixe and Climb Tech. I only have a few CTs but they measure at 3.8mm. Various generations of Fixe measure between 3.8 and 4mm.

Even with the thickest Fixe hanger the thread engagement in the expansion cone is going to be just fine.

We are only talking about discarding the washer if a 3/8 hanger is used or keeping the washer if a 1/2 hanger is used. 

No one is suggesting keeping a washer but using a 3/8 hanger.

nbrownwrote:

Furthermore, I think being this nitpicky is ironic considering the bolt isn't even manufactured for climbing in the first place. 

Thats kind of my point. Why are people removing parts from something that is engineered and designed to use all of the parts. The washer is a critical component to keeping the bolt and hanger tight when it starts taking falls. And the 3/8 hanger directly on the bolt is a big problem. I can't believe people ever did that, and can't believe people are still doing that. It was 8-10 years ago when this was addressed and resolved, by not only Fixe, but the source that Fixe deals with, which I assume was Powers or Dewalt..

rocknice2wrote:

By placing the hanger between the washer and plastic sleeve, the effective length of the bolt is reduced. It may not engage fully into the cone. As the cone is driven in, it crushes slightly at the bottom. This creates an interference fit with the bolt. If the bolt doesn't reach this point it may not reach full pullout strength and may become a spinner easier.

I think this is the strongest argument for 1/2" hangers. I suppose you could tap it in without the hanger, unscrew the stud, put back on with the hanger and torque it. That sounds like a lot of work though.

rocknice2 is right.  I will add that it is the diameter of the hole not the thickness of the washer.  The blue spacer must be against the washer, not pass thru it.  The only way I could find a washer that was correct was from Powers.  I have a new testing rig now that goes to 6,000#. I will test one.  The last 3/8" with the blue spacer removed slid right out at 1,600#.  With the washer removed the bolt moved out just enough to produce a spinner but then held to 6,000#.  At 6,000#  both the 3/8 bolt and the hanger are completely deformed but still in the hole and holding.  Powers 3/8" 5-piece are badass when placed correctly.

NEVER MODIFY A 5-PIECE BOLT

                                                    Roger Brown

EDIT:

I just placed a 3/8" hanger on a 1/2" bolt and it fits fine.  The blue spacer fits nicely up against the hanger  and the size of the hole and the diameter of the bolt are good.  But.........the thickness of the washer and the thickness of the 3/8" hanger are way off (almost a full mm) thus effecting the total length of the assembly thus effecting the timing of the bolt wedging into the  end of the cone and the cone wedging into the sleeve.

So by replacing the washer with a 3/8" hanger we are still modifying a engineered product.

I had an engineer from Dewalt caution me against using the 3/8” hanger with 1/2” bolt combo. Granted is was presented with the typical cya comment related to the setup not being tested in such a configuration, while also noting that these anchors aren’t intended for climbing pro either.

Considering the comment from the Dewalt engineer, along with the fact that I generally* adhere to the idea that we should be installing bolts following  manufacturers specifications, I’ve stopped pairing 3/8” hangers with 1/2” 5- piece bolts.

*Generally, because I still use 5-piece bolts for climbing pro despite the fact they are a construction fastener not tested for climbing applications.

Brian in SLCwrote:

Not.

Here's a few photo's to highlight what we're talking about:

Both bolts, long and short, are 1/2" Powers stainless.  Metolius hanger is 3/8", Fixe is 1/2".

Top hanger is 3/8 and has washer removed to maintain thread engagement into the cone:

Below has bottom hanger 3/8" with short 1/2" bolt.  Small spacer removed to maintain thread engagement into cone.

Bottom 3/8 hanger with all hardware from bolt.  Very little thread engagement into cone.

Bottom hanger 3/8 with washer removed and spacer installed.  Better thread engagement into cone.

Anyhow...can kinda see the differences especially between using a long and short bolt.

Cheers!

Brian, I think you misunderstood my comment or maybe just mistyped your original. You said:

"I've more worried about using 1/2" hangers with 3/8" bolts...(since I have an imbalance of both).  I'll probably just pony up to 1/2" bolts to fill those hangers..."

....which sounds like a very loosey goosey and inappropriate situation.But thanks for the visual clarification. I see where you're coming from.

We're currently using a big batch of 1/2" ClimbTech hangers paired with 1/2" 5pcs. Yes, the washers don't work, as mentioned earlier. I've always been instructed to just remove them. Instead, after this thread, I'm think of buying a bunch of slightly smaller compatible SS washers to use--what do you all think about that? Size? Thanks!