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Recent bolting at Wisconsin crags
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ONE PHONE CALL PHONE FROM ME AND ALL YOUR BOLTS ARE SMASHED! CAPISCE? |
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JJ , Thanks for the reply . Seems to make sense about popularity of the sport having increased. Hope you are pulling down. A special peace and fuk-nes to you! For me personally if by allowing a friend of mine to bolt a climb that myself and Jack Klien did the FA of without the bolts years ago ,if it contributed in some small way to access to that area becoming under the radar of the DNR I would be disappointed for sure. Don’t trust the DNR. Think New Sandstone area. Also Necadah was really pristine and wild when we started going there to climb. It was not trampled to death like some sport climbing crags get. It was not an outdoor gym. To the folks that feel that adding more bolt routes to an area is giving back to the community I would caution you to not be so quick with the drill. This ain’t a Greatful Dead concert…..more ,more , more. And besides we don’t listen to no dead guys except Lou Reed and Frank Zappa. Now puke. And Jimi Hendrix too. |
Tradibanwrote: Here here! |
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Why not do this one on gear? |
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@Alex |
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@Batman I don’t think I’ve seen evidence to back up your claim. I’m going to agree that folks need bring themselves to the level of the climb. Perhaps put in more effort and find a 5.8 worth bolting instead of forcing it. |
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@Batman so I have to be that guy and ask the obvious question. Did you ask the land owner/manager before bolting this (or any of the other routes you've done)? |
Tradibanwrote: No need to go to the mattresses. |
Aaron Batmanwrote: @Alex Well to make it simple, there’s more than enough 5.8 trad climbs all around Wisconsin let alone Necedah. However all the sport climbs that are a 5.8 or less there aren’t many and to make the matters worse, there’s literally a waiting line on all of them worse than Space Mountain at Disney. We need to help offer diversity to the sport climbing and help break up the pressure on the few routes that are sport. I know this comment will anger some of the trad community but we shouldn’t be eliminating a community that can help provide increasing support that could open up new places to climb if we can prove there’s a higher demand as well as its safer and not as detrimental to the area as the current perception is with the people in power deciding things in the state. As a few of us have already said, this is NOT the way to expand access at WI crags. Stop deluding yourselves. Bolting more doesn't win land managers over and bolting choss doesn't make things safer for the newbs. Forcing sport routes goes against the WI climber ethos that has been well established. It's ok if there's a line on the easy climbs, perhaps it will motivate people to get better so they can do the harder climbs. @Ronchetti Kidding about the chopping, all my WI henchmen are dried up dads now |
Adam Ronchettiwrote: @Batman so I have to be that guy and ask the obvious question. Did you ask the land owner/manager before bolting this (or any of the other routes you've done)? If your talking about Necedah, yeah, Please don’t do that. Contact the WCA instead if you just want to talk to someone about why you shouldn’t do that |
Double Jwrote: This ! ^^^ It’s a lot easier for land managers to just sit in their office and drink coffee ( or the beer they confiscated from some youth) and ban something they don’t want to deal with. Or don’t understand. Aaron batman? Do you really want to be the guy that gets Necedah restricted or closed ? |
Steve Sangdahlwrote: Climbing is already apparently not an allowed activity on DOT land, from what I recall from previous discussions in the WCA. This would include both Hillbilly and Necedah. Doug or Kyle please correct me if this is no longer true. |
chris treggewrote: I think I would have phrased that as: climbing is not explicitly allowed on DOT-managed land, while it is explicitly allowed (with some exceptions) on DNR-managed land. Obviously DOT has not shut us down in the last 35 years. It's not because we are invisible, folks, but don't take our access for granted, either. Last we heard, there is a plan to transfer Hillbilly from DOT to DNR. But these things can take years, even where everyone agrees. It's not a priority for anybody (except us). Aaron will be out of town for the next week or so, so you may not get an immediate response from him here. |
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Us locals had a talk with the person in question to emphasize the use of glue-in bolts only. We coached as best we could on only bolting something worthy and check into weather it is an established trad climb. I get super nervous with new route development as ever climber does possess bolting skill and a good eye for line. I have not climbed the routes in question so can't comment on the quality, it has always been the case that folks will be judged by the quality of their routes, in safety & aesthetics. The shit storm around "riverboat gambler" is a good example. Please comment to the first ascensionist if you feel it's a botch job. We are in process of replacing all the 80's & 90's expansion bolts with glue in and hope to be done next fall. We have all the puller tools to do job correctly. Please leave our access alone and let a sleeping dog lye. There is no one to ask permission from as it is owned by the DOT. Raising attention to this will result in a possible closure, DOT could easily transfer ownership to the conservancy and result in it's possible closure. It been working well for 40 years! The over use is big issue! We would ask clubs and groups avoid the crag as it can't support that pressure! Take your groups to DL Climb on Brothers! DG |
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Right on Dave! Appreciate the time/money/energy to rebolt Necedah. It’s a lot of work. Buy that guy a beer the next time you see him! |
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Dave, thanks for taking the time to reach out to the person in question. Also thanks for the effort in replacing the old bolts. Hope you are doing well. |
Doug Hemkenwrote: Is there no internet "out of town"?! We demand satisfaction! It was inevitable that eventually someone would come along to try and squeeze the last few drops out of these areas, the sport climber revolution demands it, but I feel some of the routes were bolted too hastily and perhaps an FA Fever was taking over. My biggest complaint is the bolting of chossy rock, it's dangerous and is better left alone. Unfortunately WI is cursed with much of it. I recall climbing what is now "Riverboat Hustler" and being quite disappointed those glorious jugs were too soft to justify a route. Really, you guys need to move out of WI, your thirst for new rock is clouding your judgement! Of course I think we can all agree the real villain is Jay for putting these areas in the guidebook in the first place |
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Okay, got some time here to drop a message on this thread which it clearly directed towards me. There are a lot of different directions here so I'll try to address all the concerns and hopefully shine some light on what my intentions are and lastly to call out some things on here that are wrong. 1. First off, my intentions for bolting. I will not deny that I wanted to put up more routes to address the growing amount of climbers going to the crags. I enjoy climbing and it's given myself a level of challenge and enjoyment that I often like to share with other people. But I'm not here to talk about merit systems or etc, what I want to talk about and let's be perfectly clear is the amount of climbing pressure there is. Don't make any mistake about it, since Covid has happened along with other factors like the Olympics taking on climbing, there's been a strong interest among the general public to start and try climbing. That being said to address what JJ was talking about, yes..... we are getting an influx of people from Madison, Milwaukee and Chicago and from what I've gathered when talking to people..... they aren't a fan of Devil's Lake (won't deny, neither am I but I'll digress) and want to climb elsewhere. That being said, I disagree with the idea that not having more routes to address the pressure is going to alleviate anything because people are still going to come, they are going to climb and they are going to run what routes are optional to them dry. Also on top of that, the idea that they should learn trad, I will agree with. Trad is a great way of climbing and has minimal impact but the problem is that it does alienate a portion of the climbing community primarily your gym climbers. These are people that want to climb outdoors and want to learn but don't have the necessary funds or they don't have someone to teach them to place gear vs more people who sport climb and will show them that. I'm not saying there aren't people out there willing to teach trad (I've seen Dave's post on Wisco climbers when people ask to climb somewhere and he's always willing among others which I'm glad to see others) as well but point is still made, there are more climbers become sport climbers because of how things are evolving. Because of this, I will contest that these areas are overcrowded with what limited options there are. Please go to Necedah on a weekend with good weather and you will see the road lined up with vehicles on both sides even when the mosquitoes are at their worse in the summer and the hornets have established themselves and you get yourself stun while sticking your hand into a crack or hold. The hollows gets anywhere from 4-8 parties a day as well on the weekends. Where do most of these people climb? On the lower leveled routes, coyote tower always has people on it, air spire has a train usually (would be way more if the bolts weren't so far apart but the head game tends to make at least some nervous), glass balls and who's berndt arendt (which I hear plenty of complaints about because of the first bolt and decking at the second bolt). There are trad climbers out there too and the harder routes have attention too but I put the two routes around Riverboat because honestly the Hustler route to the right of Gambler is an amazing route. We ran people through that on top rope after we worked a path and many people felt the same way I did. This route wasn't put up on a whim, I had ran people that were on Gambler through it after cleaning it up and asked opinions and there wasn't a single person that thought the route was anything close to being bad. Now let's be forward about the rock in Necedah..... it's soft as hell. Like I'll agree with you Tradiban, I wish we had better rock (honestly I love the Hollows rock) in Wisconsin in general but all those times I ran people up it after cleaning, if they stayed on the path, the rock held up. Will it 5 years from now? I hope so, there's one crucial jug that makes going over the roof easy and it seems insanely strong but just like Jabba the Roof (which was put up 3 years ago if I'm not mistaken), yes it could break like any of the routes. Now, let's address Amateur. why did that route get put up when it could be led on trad. I don't know any routes under a 5.9 really or 5.8 for sure that can't be lead on trad. This wasn't an obvious crack line like Whiskey chimney or Hydroponics or etc but it was more of a flake set up with the small crackline in the start for about 10 ft? That being said, since this route was not listed nor claimed and it was right next gambler and hustler which would make it a good warm up. Now, you're going to say well there's Berdnt Arednt down the way....... they can warm up on that. See my reason above about people's love towards that route and the fear of decking and causing injury. I wanted to provide an alternative and this seemed like a logical and safe choice along with the spot being ideal for belaying and etc and provide something of a lower level for climbing. 2. This banks off where I left after 1. which I'm sure there's all ready a list of counters and etc but I can only put so much down on words. Bolting at the Wisconsin crags, at this point, I don't have any plans or intentions to bolt anymore routes in the state (I have intentions in a couple other areas and that goes beyond this thread and is of no concern). I only wanted to add a couple in the areas I'm near and enjoy which also I will say there really isn't any room for more anyhow because it seems maxed out (Like Tradiban, I feel any other options are questionable rock and don't feel comfortable setting any line up because I'm not a fan of choss either which is ironic since he said the same thing, maybe somebody will prove me wrong 10 years from now) or there's lines all ready established which brings me to another thing that was mentioned in this thread, I HAVE NOT BOLTED ANYBODY'S TRAD ROUTE THAT ISN'T MINE OR HAVE HAD PERMISSION ON SAID ROUTE OR WILL BOLT A ROUTE THAT HAS AN OBVIOUS CRACK FOR TRAD. Anybody who has said I have needs to talk to me directly and get their facts straight unless I have a double of me out there doing this and I don't know it (or I misread somebody making the accusation in the thread since there was a lot to take in). My intentions at this point are to start retrobolting and getting rid of the expansion bolts and switching over to glue ins for the obvious reasons (I've been talking to Dave about this at the start of the year if anybody doubts me and thinks I'm just trying to divert heat off whats happening) and working with others to help gain access to new crags and working with whom we have to in an effort to make that happen. 3. One thing I want to point out, yes, maybe adding another couple routes at Necedah will attract more attention...... but I'm going to be very forward about this. It seems to make it a scapegoat for the other activities that have drawn way more attention. What am I talking about? The girl that fell out at Necedah and resulted in the road being blocked off with a bunch of emergency vehicles? Sorry but it happened back in the middle of August and she was climbing. Pretty sure that draws attention to the area. But let's talk about how the Weekly Whipper showed the Straight no Chaser fall or how there's a ton of videos on Youtube with some saying Necedah is the premier sport place in Wisconsin (mainly cause there isn't any). Also there's been other routes put up there in last couple of years before me even so its interesting that this is coming to light. This isn't meant to distract from the fact that I put up those routes in Necedah (which seems to be the start of this thread). Now I've put routes up over at the Hollows too so if we want to discuss that, we can as well but doesn't seem to be the main focus. 4. The hurry to put routes up and get FAs. At this point, if there's anything left over on these crags to claim an FA on, it's going to be there at a later date so I'll disagree again but to decide if a route is too soon to go up is really definitive to the person, we could wait 10 years from now to bolt something or wait 10 days (which way too soon in my book by far, like that's insane). When I find a possible path, it starts with top roping and seeing how good the rock is (which I've had some not pan out so hopefully this points out that it's not just a race to bolt whatever choss rock so we can have a bad route that leads to an injury). On top of that, I plot out where the bolts will go and then I run others through the route, I have a couple of people climb the routes with varying heights (one that's 6'0 and another that's 5'1 til he got injured) but I watch them climb and they confirm that they felt comfortable clipping and etc as well as any safety concerns. I'm only 5'6 and some of these routes I've jumped on (particularly Rich's routes..... dang that reach he has must have been big) and the it's hard doing some clips so I try to accommodate everybody that might climb my route because I want to make it enjoyable for them and ensure that an injury won't happen and if something is brought up, I try to address it or etc. All in all, there's more here that we can all disagree or agree about. But if this is a concern towards me adding more routes around at the local crags...... honestly I don't think there's anymore that can be added because things seem full at this point. If we want to talk about how we can expand climbing areas, I'm very much for it and have some designs which some people have reached out to me about. Until then, I'm sure there's going to be disagreements with what I've stated above and there's more but I'm almost at the limit of words on this post and really don't want to fill out more since this is the most onlining I've done on Mountain Project. If you wish, message me directly but until then, climb on everybody and be safe. |
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WOW. I have never seen someone max out words on a post, so much so that I tried to quote and the quote maxed out my response! So here we go with no quote: I commend you for thinking deeply about your bolting, but your logic is flawed. -Bolting anything doesn't preserve or promote access and bolting choss is just plain dangerous. Several of your routes already have comments about big holds coming off. -Over crowding does not justify new routes, especially bad ones. People will have to wait and that's ok. -Safety is the responsibility of the climber and even routes with perfectly spaced bolts will have accidents. If you really care about safety, keep it a top rope. To sum it up: The only reasons to bolt a route are, it's a good (solid 2 stars+), has solid rock the whole way, can not be lead on gear, and can not be top roped. "Bolting is the snake you grabbed by the tail." -Tradiban |
Tradibanwrote: Or shouldn't be top roped as the top of is eroding and there are no suitable gear anchors without 200' of static line tied to receding trees 80' back. In my eyes there is a good argument for keeping foot traffic to the base only, not the top and bottom. |
