Trundling?

What’s the ethic on trundling? We were on a route when a 200 pound block moved towards falling off the lip with one pound of pressure on the top. Seemed like trundling it could save lives. Trundling it certainly could take out trees with rappel anchors and other rock on the climb. Thoughts? I’ve never seen anything this loose in my life right in the path of the climber and belayer. Is there a way to get above it and try to surgically remove it with straps and lower 300’ to the ground??? Seems like that production comes with its own danger and not sure how you could get any webbing under the block for a stabile lower and then it would get lodged on ledges. Ugh. 

There was a big slab that should have been cleared.  I couldn't clear it without a major event like spotters and stuff.  Later I heard it blew and killed someone.   

Depends on the route and conditions.  But safely trundling a block could save a life.

Spider Savage wrote:

There was a big slab that should have been cleared.  I couldn't clear it without a major event like spotters and stuff.  Later I heard it blew and killed someone.   

Depends on the route and conditions.  But safely trundling a block could save a life.

Hi Spider. That illuminates the real dilemma for sure! 

Alert the locals. They may have experience doing this and the land managers may want a say on how this is done. May take a small army to do it safely, as well as coordination getting the word out.

Long Ranger wrote:

Alert the locals. They may have experience doing this and the land managers may want a say on how this is done. May take a small army to do it safely, as well as coordination getting the word out.

I would agree with this one. Also if you're looking at it and you know not to touch it, but you feel like someone who may not know better will yard on it and pull it off, maybe it should be removed 

I recall a block about that size that was near the top of Ruper in Eldo. It was just stable enough to add two Triplex bolts to it so that it could be lowered to the upper ramp. The bolts were then removed easily because that's how Triplex bolts work. (Actually, now that I think about it - Mike might have just used two cheap plated wedge bolts with deep holes and punched them in and patched when he was done).  Splitting the rock into multiple pieces is another strategy, but it has to be stable and you have to have the skill to do that. 

I love a good trundle. Under the safest practices... Its rewarding to know you did something to make an area safer and it's a fun engineering endeavor to safely lower the rock to the ground. I recently helped remove a loose block that wiggled and moved on my buddy mid climb from a local spot thats chossy AF. The freeze/thaw every year releases new death blocks... the before and after photo here* https://www.mountainproject.com/photo/121527367

or theres the less safe but more fun version of dropping the thing and watching the fireworks! This one was much more remote and remains a covid crag Ppl dont know about.

https://www.instagram.com/p/B-SqIMUJsSO9rwgHc9px8bMIyM3HFvz8HGp1lU0/.  (sorry my instagram is the only video*)

Trundling is odd to suggest methods from a keyboard, but gather the best minds from locals and report the issue would be the easiest way to clear your conscience. Take a back seat and help/watch the show on how they get it down and learn something new.

What are the environmental conditions?
What I mean is, where is the Cliff?

How tall is it?

What’s below/downhill of the impact zone?

Is it a popular area, are there other people around?

Are there houses or parking lots with cars close by?

What’s the landing zone like? Is it flat or on a slope?

Is the impact zone groomed or have any structures that might be damaged?

What’s the wall angle? Vertical, slabby, overhanging?

What might the Boulder hit on the way down?

Will dislodging the Boulder cause additional rockfall, unstablize the soils/rocks around it or cause erosion possibly causing future rockfall, dirt and debris?

Can any dislodged or loose rock dirt and debris also be cleared safely? 

Without any of that known, nobody can give you a fair recommendation of what the best course of action would be. Use your head, think of every possibility and be 100% sure no one will get hurt and nothing will be damaged. But if it’s out in the middle of nowhere and no one is around… boot that shit! 

For better advice, please contact the North American Trundling Association for their pamphlet "Droppin' Bombs: The Science of Safe Trundling" (NATA Publication 032-b.rev 2).  

They are a lot safer than the competing group, Trundlers United.  That said, I bet it was quite a sight to see when TU trundled the second lost arrow spire back in '53.

John Reeve wrote:

For better advice, please contact the North American Trundling Association for their pamphlet "Droppin' Bombs: The Science of Safe Trundling" (NATA Publication 032-b.rev 2).  

They are a lot safer than the competing group, Trundlers United.  That said, I bet it was quite a sight to see when TU trundled the second lost arrow spire back in '53.

Is TU the same group that trundled a couple pitches of Half Dome RNWF about 5 years back? Those people are insane.

Andrew Krajnik wrote:

Is TU the same group that trundled a couple pitches of Half Dome RNWF about 5 years back? Those people are insane.

That was the People's United Front Range Trundlers.

Long Ranger wrote:

That was the People's United Front Range Trundlers.

No it wasn’t.. 

It was the Front Range United People’s Trundlers.

…People’s United Fromt Range Trundlers…

Pfft…. Splitters!!!

I don’t usually trundle, but when I do it’s by headlamp… 

I trundled a washing machine/dishwasher size block at Ely Nevada once. Easily the biggest thing I've ever trundled. Seemed like the right thing to do. This block probably could have stayed put, but it would have been one of these things people would have been working around cautiously for years. So I trundled. Some 180 feet. The block left an immense crater where it initially landed, and proceeded to wreak havoc as it ripped its way through the forest below. I feel guilty still, to this day, for the destruction I wrought, but I also feel like I did the right thing for the safety of future climbers who might be on this route.

LL2 wrote:

I trundled a washing machine/dishwasher size block at Ely Nevada once. The block left an immense crater where it initially landed, and proceeded to wreak havoc as it ripped its way through the forest below. I feel guilty still, to this day, for the destruction I wrought, but I also feel like I did the right thing for the safety of future climbers who might be on this route.

I think I can understand the mixed feelings. People have noted the debris that can be left on the climb and nearby climbs, as well as the destruction of rappel trees and rock features on climbs. Potentially saving a life is pretty grand though. 

This was more of a "what destruction did i cause on the forest below" thing, but yes, I appreciate your comment, Fluffy.

Pete S wrote:

I don’t usually trundle, but when I do it’s by headlamp… 

Sometimes best if you want stay under the radar as long as you can see below ya and know none are there. 

Almost never pop the big stuff unless we are far far from people, it is an immediate hazard with high potential to go, and there's no way to avoid passing it. Otherwise, let sleeping dogs lie. The next team of climbers can deal with it.

Reminds me of Jimmy Chin tapping the flake in Meru.  

LL2 wrote:

This was more of a "what destruction did i cause on the forest below" thing, but yes, I appreciate your comment, Fluffy.

People > Trees

outside of ethical views of the area and legality of removing the object.

Anchor solutions: can you wrap the rock with vertical oriented hitches? You could also install a bolt and use that to raise/lower.

Hazard mitigation: make sure there are no homes, people, property that you can hit if the debris were to continue at the base. Have a spotter and a way to monitor the area. Using a old rope as a “catch net” could be a possibility. But doing so means the anchors could have a lot of force on them and may not work pending what hits it. 

other solutions. Is the block on the climb or just a worry as it may fall? You could interlink a bolt between the hazard and the wall two bolts and a short piece of chain would be the easier with standard climber accessed tools.

There may be someone else with more Geo experience than myself, but those are some of the ideas that come to mind.

If it only takes as little effort to move it as you said then make sure its clear below and let it rip.  

Trundling wakes up evil spirits.