Grading Routes Pre-Ascent=NO!

Matthew Jaggerswrote:

Please enlighten me then. What did I say?

Yes, elitism for sure. If you are a 5.4 climber, you should wait until you send 5.5 before you expect to know what 5.5 feels like, and you should send the route in question to know if it is actually 5.5 or not. When you send, then by all means, downgrade it to 5.4 if you wish, and welcome to the club of elite climbing!

Speaking of elitism, it's awesome watching the guilty parties rationalize their grading contributions. They are superior to everyone that came before them. 

Maybe some of the guilty parties have climbed at very high levels in the past and possibly have way more experience than you. Probably not at the red though since its just an outdoor gym for all the gymies within 1000 miles.

Matthew Jaggerswrote:

Please enlighten me then. What did I say?

Yes, elitism for sure. If you are a 5.4 climber, you should wait until you send 5.5 before you expect to know what 5.5 feels like, and you should send the route in question to know if it is actually 5.5 or not. When you send, then by all means, downgrade it to 5.4 if you wish, and welcome to the club of elite climbing!

Speaking of elitism, it's awesome watching the guilty parties rationalize their grading contributions. They are superior to everyone that came before them. 

Why not take it a step further? You're not allowed to grade a climb unless your best redpoint is two letter grades harder.

Tradibanwrote:

Why not take it a step further? You're not allowed to grade a climb unless your best redpoint is two letter grades harder.

Only if youre upgrading something you've sent by 2 grades. 

Also, i never said you're "not allowed" to do anything, I just think you are doing the rest of the community a disservice by spraying about something you know nothing about.

Exhibit A:

This red dude gave the start a couple of tries (maybe), didn't find the beta, and then sprays about it being 5.12-. This is a very soft 11c at max. It's not reachy, it's not hieght dependent, it is simply really tricky beta, and quite difficult to figure out. I thought for sure this move was going to be 12c/d with a huge lockoff or possibly a dyno, until the beta was found. Laughably, even if this move was what this guy claimed, it wouldn't be 12-, itd be 12+ minimum. So even his spray wasn't informed, because he never did the moves, and he never sent.

Also, the blacked out person didn't even do the moves on TR, and they seem to know that it's 11c. How would they know that? Snooping their ticks, they've never even sent 11a. 

Btw, I do have more examples besides this ridiculous one, but you can find them yourself. 

Matthew Jaggerswrote:

Only if youre upgrading something you've sent by 2 grades. 

Also, i never said you're "not allowed" to do anything, I just think you are doing the rest of the community a disservice by spraying about something you know nothing about.

Exhibit A:

This red dude gave the start a couple of tries (maybe), didn't find the beta, and then sprays about it being 5.12-. This is a very soft 11c at max. It's not reachy, it's not hieght dependent, it is simply really tricky beta, and quite difficult to figure out. I thought for sure this move was going to be 12c/d with a huge lockoff or possibly a dyno, until the beta was found. Laughably, even if this move was what this guy claimed, it wouldn't be 12-, itd be 12+ minimum. So even his spray wasn't informed, because he never did the moves, and he never sent.

Also, the blacked out person didn't even do the moves on TR, and they seem to know that it's 11c. How would they know that? Snooping their ticks, they've never even sent 11a. 

Btw, I do have more examples besides this ridiculous one, but you can find them yourself. 

Is this seriously got your knickers in a knot? That someone couldn't quickly figure out the same tricky beta you did and rated the climb maybe a letter and a half harder than you, the first ascentionist who is much more invested in the climb than anyone else ever will be, thought it was?

10/10

soft cruxwrote:

Climbing, particularly the specifics of individual routes, has always been governed by simple rules. It has to be because there are no governing bodies, committees, elected officials, etc. And we want it that way.

Lol. So who sets these rules then?

There are no rules in climbing.

A V wrote:

If we're being honest that route is soft for 11c - if you find the even trickier beta of walking around the back of the route to the top of the cliff, then the difficulty drops to 3rd/4th class or so 

I think so too. I thought it was 11a/b , but the group conclusion was b/c. Definitely easier than the 11c directly across from it. And the hidden beta around the back is 4th class all day!

@Matt R Thats the point. If you dont send, move on with your life and don't spray about how it's 4 grades harder than what's posted, because you don't have a clue.

Matthew Jaggerswrote:

@Matt R Thats the point. If you dont send, move on with your life and don't spray about how it's 4 grades harder than what's posted, because you don't have a clue.

Dude look in the mirror and take your own advice. From what I can see here someone found a new route on mountain project graded 11 b/c, tried it, couldn't find the double-secret probation beta hack, still got to the top of the route on what sounds like pretty meh rock, and rated it 12- which is far from 4 letter grades (aka a whole number grade) off from the community consensus grade you yourself agreed to post.  If you can't accept people having relatively minor differences in opinion about the grade of your routes maybe it's time to put down the drill for the sake of your own happiness.

Edit to add: By your own logic someone shouldn't post estimated grades (which frankly all grades are) to closed project routes which haven't been sent yet, but that is exactly what you have also done. What is the difference between the equipper estimating a grade on a route they can't send, but maybe a different person could with different beta the equipper couldn't figure out; and the opposite happening besides the order the attempts took place in?

Matthew Jaggerswrote:

I think so too. I thought it was 11a/b , but the group conclusion was b/c. Definitely easier than the 11c directly across from it. And the hidden beta around the back is 4th class all day!

So... you didn't actually rate it what you thought it was. Hmmm.

Also why are you blocking names out, they have public ticks lol

Daniel Chode Riderwrote:

So... you didn't actually rate it what you thought it was. Hmmm.

Also why are you blocking names out, they have public ticks lol

Maybe maja should just stop stalking dudes online profiles, problem solved, go climbing.

Todd Berlier wrote:

or take the upgrade as a compliment and move on.

That could work too. Its as if what someone else thinks about a chunk of rock and some new bolts even matter. This is basically a great example of first world Karening. Next go threaten the local school board over liberal indoctrination or vaccinations... Its all 5.9

JCMwrote:

Lol. So who sets these rules then?

There are no rules in climbing.

homann! we got a chipper!

Matthew I would just let it go. Count it as a win they climbed your route and move on.

To the rest of mountain project there is a difference between caring about grades and obsessing about grades. At the end of the day if someone doesn’t adhere to your imaginary ethics and your offended about them grading it or not that’s your own personal problem. Let it go and just climb.

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

Matthew I would just let it go. Count it as a win they climbed your route and move on.

To the rest of mountain project there is a difference between caring about grades and obsessing about grades. At the end of the day if someone doesn’t adhere to your imaginary ethics and your offended about them grading it or not that’s your own personal problem. Let it go and just climb.

Isn't that what he's saying though? Let it go. If you are not sure then don't grade it. If you haven't climbed it, how can you be sure?

In my gym when there is a new route they put up cards to let people vote on the grade. If I only get halfway up the climb and then give up, I don't check a vote. Because don't know! I could guess because I know it is harder than the hardest I can climb, but that would not be helpful to anyone.

I just don't understand why anyone would take the time to enter a grade when they didn't even finish the route. Let it go.

And now I have that song in my head, lol

Matthew Jaggerswrote:

I  thought Cross Contamination was going to be harder, until I spent the time working out the beta and putting it all together.

Working a route is cheating, only On Sights count.  

Look at the posts above, the person who caused this kerfuffle rated a route they hadn't sent clean a little harder than the first ascentionist thought it was.  They chose this grade based on their personal experiences on several other routes of about the same grade after having done all the moves.  There's a big difference between that and only making it half way up a route and getting shut down.

Edit to add: this is the route in question, the person who upgraded the route had sent their first 13 about a month prior, and man do the comments make this thing sound like a massive turd https://www.mountainproject.com/route/stats/121099933/good-wood-solid-spank

Astrid Reywrote:

Isn't that what he's saying though? Let it go. If you are not sure then don't grade it. If you haven't climbed it, how can you be sure?

In my gym when there is a new route they put up cards to let people vote on the grade. If I only get halfway up the climb and then give up, I don't check a vote. Because don't know! I could guess because I know it is harder than the hardest I can climb, but that would not be helpful to anyone.

I just don't understand why anyone would take the time to enter a grade when they didn't even finish the route. Let it go.

And now I have that song in my head, lol

if you did that in the gym I still wouldn’t really care that much if at all, if anything I would think it’s super funny…

Matt Robinsonwrote:

Look at the posts above, the person who caused this kerfuffle rated a route they hadn't sent clean a little harder than the first ascentionist thought it was.  They chose this grade based on their personal experiences on several other routes of about the same grade after having done all the moves.  There's a big difference between that and only making it half way up a route and getting shut down.

Edit to add: this is the route in question, the person who upgraded the route had sent their first 13 about a month prior, and man do the comments make this thing sound like a massive turd https://www.mountainproject.com/route/stats/121099933/good-wood-solid-spank

Anyone who has climbed over on the left side of Chica Bonita probably could have guessed this one would be a massive turd...

Ben Silverwrote:

Anyone who has climbed over on the left side of Chica Bonita probably could have guessed this one would be a massive turd...

True, I only bushwhacked back there once to check out what laying pipe looked like for the novelty factor and had no desire to return when there are so many better routes in the main sections of Chica bonita.

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

if you did that in the gym I still wouldn’t really care that much if at all, if anything I would think it’s super funny…

Hey I know you! You're that guy that wears his climbing shoes in the bathroom at the gym and then climbs the kiddie routes!

Astrid Reywrote:

Hey I know you! You're that guy that wears his climbing shoes in the bathroom at the gym and then climbs the kiddie routes!

Of course! Why not get that guaranteed send?

Also ironically enough, I apparently got on quite a few routes this week where key holds broke, resulting in significant upgrading however if we follow the logic in this thread if something was 11a and now is 15b no one can upgrade it….but fortunately all I climb are kiddie routes!!! Or at least I feel like a kid when climbing!!

Edit: also do you know how good the kids at my gym are…they are stronger than you or I or anyone is this forum or most Americans and I don’t mean that in the conventional way.