Why Not Top Belay/Retrievable Rappel off a Beckett (actually a Blackwall) Hitch?

In this first picture (belay from top concept), my hand is on the brake strand.  This won't work with pear-shaped biners, but it might be compatible with some mussy hooks.  If the biner disorients, it might collapse the knot into a round turn.

The second picture (retrievable rappel concept) will self-release by pulling a dozen or so times, like the Escaper without the Escaper.  

Because there already are better established methods to use that have a much less likely chance of getting you killed if you mess things up?

Gene Bankswrote:

Because there already are better established methods to use that have a much less likely chance of getting you killed if you mess things up?

If you mess things up, you die in either case.  It's good to have extra tools in the toolbox if they have any use at all, methinks.

What problem are you trying to solve? 

As much as I'd love being able to single-line rappel with no BS like having to carry a rope length of cord, that hitch seems terrifyingly fragile. Oops, I unweighted the rope at a ledge or bounced off the rock to get around a tree, and now it's completely undone itself. Resistance to a handful of of 'tug's is not reassuring when it only takes one 'flick'.

My wish: for someone to invent a sort of RC carabiner that allows you to single-line rap, push a button, and have the carabiner open itself like an arcade claw game. Downside is that now at every rappel pull you're yelling 'rock' as a big hunk of metal comes hurtling down attached to your anchor knot. Maybe if you could make one light enough...

Who in their right mind would use either of those “methods”?!?!?!?!?

MattHwrote:

As much as I'd love being able to single-line rappel with no BS like having to carry a rope length of cord, that hitch seems terrifyingly fragile. Oops, I unweighted the rope at a ledge or bounced off the rock to get around a tree, and now it's completely undone itself. Resistance to a handful of of 'tug's is not reassuring when it only takes one 'flick'.

My wish: for someone to invent a sort of RC carabiner that allows you to single-line rap, push a button, and have the carabiner open itself like an arcade claw game. Downside is that now at every rappel pull you're yelling 'rock' as a big hunk of metal comes hurtling down attached to your anchor knot. Maybe if you could make one light enough...

Beal escaper is the answer to full length single line rappel.

climber patwrote:

Beal escaper is the answer to full length single line rappel.

My elbow tendonitis is bad enough as is. Seeing the HowNotToHighline video where it took dozens of vigorous tugs under ideal conditions (short pitch, no added friction from rock in the mix) turned me off completely. I'll stick to 35m raps or double rope setups

Eric Mosswrote:

In this first picture (belay from top concept), my hand is on the brake strand.  This won't work with pear-shaped biners, but it might be compatible with some mussy hooks.  If the biner disorients, it might collapse the knot into a round turn.

This is actually already (more or less) a thing, with a modification to include a second carabiner, thereby forming a stuflesser hitch. See:

https://youtu.be/xWYNmiQr0Qk 

It operates similarly to a blocking munter hitch. Friction is pretty hefty, so not my first choice, but one more trick in the bag, I suppose.

Yes, a handy tool to have in the box - just not for life safety applications.   I just used it this past weekend to haul chainsaws up and down a tree as I played arborist (new found fricking respect for arborists by the way!).   Also known as the “alpine clutch” or Garda Hitch - again as Derek said, Typically with two biners.  It’s an old school tool, but I’d stick to using it for non critical equipment hauling and not people.  Too many ways for it to go wrong.  A Microtraction puts it to shame. 

Bryanwrote:

What problem are you trying to solve? 

Normally you can only rappel half the length of the rope, but a system like this would allow you close to the full rope length.

It's also nice to have an auto-locking belay like this, potentially off mussy hooks, without any extra gear.

Eric Mosswrote:

Normally you can only rappel half the length of the rope, but a system like this would allow you close to the full rope length.

It's also nice to have an auto-locking belay like this, potentially off mussy hooks, without any extra gear.

Go for it Eric! 

Eric Mosswrote:

Normally you can only rappel half the length of the rope, but a system like this would allow you close to the full rope length.

It's also nice to have an auto-locking belay like this, potentially off mussy hooks, without any extra gear.

Please don't pretend like this is a safe alternative to proper equipment. 

Derek DeBruinwrote:

This is actually already (more or less) a thing, with a modification to include a second carabiner, thereby forming a stuflesser hitch. See:

https://youtu.be/xWYNmiQr0Qk 

It operates similarly to a blocking munter hitch. Friction is pretty hefty, so not my first choice, but one more trick in the bag, I suppose.

I hadn't noticed the similarity to the Garda hitch (as I call it).  Nice observation.  The Garda has some advantages and disadvantages to the Beckett.

I can imagine why the Beckett might have been overlooked for so long, because it's an old school technique on new-school gear (d-shaped biners)

Tradibanwrote:

Please don't pretend like this is a safe alternative to proper equipment. 

 Unfortunately, it will upset many Beal shareholders.

By the way, it definitely doesn't work on some D-shaped biners.  I guess it's too finicky, but there should be some science to figure out the best applications

Edit:  I was able to make it work when it wouldn't by passing a bight instead of the tail, so that the loop around the spine is higher up.  The thing to prevent is the loop slipping below the spine past the crook, that's when it collapses.

All the variables are definitely too complicated for your typical rock jock, but I wouldn't be surprised if some dark artist has already perfected this technique.

Edit: Made it work with skinny cord and extra wraps.  Extra wraps could be used to bolster the rope version.

It's sort of a super-Beckett hitch

Tradiban wrote:

 With the extra wraps you will have a terrible time getting it to release.

I appreciate the out of the box thinking but your commitment to a debunked idea is borderline trolling.

The community has spoken, this is unsuitable for rock climbing.

I didn't find it difficult to release. I'm unaware that any debunking has occurred, it's only surmise and assumptions that I can see. I don't believe "the community" has a singular voice from which to speak. There must be several of us who are interested in such an idea, it could mean less gear and more safety if it can be vetted.  For example, some are wary of the Escaper, but those with a deep appreciation of knots (albeit a minority of climbers) understand the security of the device - it's simply a Valdotain Tresse in a stiff springy webbing.  There's no magic that makes it work, just friction that is also in play with the beckett.  The turn overlapping itself, the nipping loop, is the same structure which supports the bowline and the sheet bend and the sheepshank.  By the way, another approach to a releasable rappel is the bowline, perhaps a left-handed bowline, since it will probably fail under enough loading/unloading cycles.

It's amazing how people keep coming up with new ways to get themselves killed! It's almost always about being lazy!

Wow! I have a pretty low safety level but but no way in hell would I ever rap off that!

That’s literally a slip knot!  I can’t imagine any reason I’d ever rap on something like that.

Eric Mosswrote:

 Unfortunately, it will upset many Beal shareholders.

By the way, it definitely doesn't work on some D-shaped biners.  I guess it's too finicky, but there should be some science to figure out the best applications

Edit:  I was able to make it work when it wouldn't by passing a bight instead of the tail, so that the loop around the spine is higher up.  The thing to prevent is the loop slipping below the spine past the crook, that's when it collapses.

All the variables are definitely too complicated for your typical rock jock, but I wouldn't be surprised if some dark artist has already perfected this technique.

Edit: Made it work with skinny cord and extra wraps.  Extra wraps could be used to bolster the rope version.

It's sort of a super-Beckett hitch

With the extra wraps you will have a terrible time getting it to release.

I appreciate the out of the box thinking but your commitment to a debunked idea is borderline trolling.

The community has spoken, this is unsuitable for rock climbing.

MattHwrote:

My wish: for someone to invent a sort of RC carabiner that allows you to single-line rap, push a button, and have the carabiner open itself like an arcade claw game. Downside is that now at every rappel pull you're yelling 'rock' as a big hunk of metal comes hurtling down attached to your anchor knot. Maybe if you could make one light enough...

https://youtu.be/MihsZwJ4bTo

E-Frog to the rescue!