Do Incredible Hand Crack and other Creek trade routes need a bolt

Love the responses and mostly civil discussion so far which is mainly what I was trying to invoke. No this is not a troll, just something I’ve been thinking about over the past 10 years of climbing there. I do agree that a bolt on a trade route may incur unnecessary unfit ascents, so thanks for pointing that out. I understand some of the spiteful things…yeah this place has become a mini burning man at times and is more about partying than climbing and less about having your shit dialed which most people don’t.

I only support the bolt on double cross

Long Rangerwrote:

The rock is just too soft and fragile. A bolt here and there just isn't going to save any of these climbs. They're all slowly eroding away. The busier the route, the faster that's happening. Even the guidebooks tell you to maybe just climb a super classic once, then go do something else.

This is the issue.  Newsflash! Everything deteriorates, even rock, but especially sandstone.   The size of these popular cracks has changed over the years just from use.  I would guess that the wear and tear on these routes is 98% climbers climbing them day in and day out - even talented, precise climbers - and 2% people falling on their gear.  It's not just "softer" rock like sandstone. I mean, I can't even count the number of granite routes I've done in Yosemite and the Meadows that have had tiny nubbins exfoliate off over the years from generations of feet smushing on them, changing the grade of the route. Bolts and topropes will do nothing.  

I don't think that bolting is gonna help that situation.

My solution was to:

- do IHC once in my life cause so many folks use it as a point of reference (and that happened to be on top rope cause that's what we had up, but whatever)

- not do it again cause other folks might wanna try it and it's gonna get worn out and there are plenty of other fun things to do in that area

- make my peace with the fact that sandstone climbs are ephemeral, especially if a lot of folks do them

- try and find some Pareto efficiency between exploring less-populated places and not leaving a bunch of new marks on as-yet-undeveloped cliffs

Those are all within my control and I don't need community input to make them happen :D 

Why would anyone bother going to IC more than once in their climbing lifetime anyhow? It's the same damn move a million times. either fingers and toes or back hands and hoes. great place to learn to karate chop, but once you got it down, go Kung Fu the shite outta better routes with more variety somewhere else. IC lacks full vision. yeah it's unique. but so is the eiffel tower. one and done. 

jcs

jackscoldsweatwrote:

Why would anyone bother going to IC more than once in their climbing lifetime anyhow? It's the same damn move a million times. either fingers and toes or back hands and hoes. great place to learn to karate chop, but once you got it down, go Kung Fu the shite outta better routes with more variety somewhere else. IC lacks full vision. yeah it's unique. but so is the eiffel tower. one and done.

jcs

This x1000. Real trad climbers visit variety gem crags like Little Falls, NY

phylp phylpwrote:

Long Rangerwrote:

The rock is just too soft and fragile. A bolt here and there just isn't going to save any of these climbs. They're all slowly eroding away. The busier the route, the faster that's happening. Even the guidebooks tell you to maybe just climb a super classic once, then go do something else.

This is the issue.  Newsflash! Everything deteriorates, even rock, but especially sandstone.   The size of these popular cracks has changed over the years just from use.  I would guess that the wear and tear on these routes is 98% climbers climbing them day in and day out - even talented, precise climbers - and 2% people falling on their gear.  It's not just "softer" rock like sandstone. I mean, I can't even count the number of granite routes I've done in Yosemite and the Meadows that have had tiny nubbins exfoliate off over the years from generations of feet smushing on them, changing the grade of the route. Bolts and topropes will do nothing.  

As much as I’d love to agree with this sentiment, it’s simply not true. The cruxes of routes and certain sections of others have literal cam tracks/pods in them from over use.

How about a wear resistant transparent, or color matched, coating on the rock? It would need the right kind of friction properties as well but probably doable with today’s polymer technologies.

Bill Czajkowskiwrote:

How about a wear resistant transparent, or color matched, coating on the rock? It would need the right kind of friction properties as well but probably doable with today’s polymer technologies.

6/10

Weston Swrote:

6/10

Just shows your lack of imagination.

Austin Donisanwrote:

I think in the future trad climbing on soft sandstone will be looked at like pitons are today. Acceptable in some circumstances, but too destructive for most routes.

I'm not sure how we get there from here, but I see it happening in ~50 years.

I mean sandstone cracks are boring anyway, it's just the same move over and over again. The creek is super boring, might as well just go somewhere else. 

Bill Czajkowskiwrote:

How about a wear resistant transparent, or color matched, coating on the rock? It would need the right kind of friction properties as well but probably doable with today’s polymer technologies.

GLUE THE CRACKS!

That's actually brilliant.

As a thought experiment, I considered what I might do if I owned a soft sandstone crag outright and wanted to preserve the rock without significantly decreasing climber traffic (which is perhaps the actual best choice). It's clear if you've seen a lot of these (despite what some people are saying here) that metal cams grinding on the inside of cracks and nylon rope rubbing on edges is causing significantly more wear than simple hand and foot traffic inside and around cracks. You can test this theory on your favorite sandstone choss heap by rubbing your foot on part of it and then dragging your cam lobes across that same part.

In this thought experiment, I can make a case in my head for some kind of carefully bolted permadraw setup on my property. Per some other commenters, a straight in jam crack could maybe be protected using modern trad gear by a particularly smart five year old, so it's not like anyone is missing out on some religious trad experience. The bottleneck might very well be having enough cash to buy the cams, instead of having the "trad head" to plug and chug.

Should we bolt Indian Creek? Probably not. Is it a more egregious violation of the rock to add some stainless glue-ins than it is to have people grind metal cam lobes inside the crack for decades on end? Frankly, I don't think so. I think the bolts are almost certainly the friendlier choice.

An interesting thought experiment for sure. It changes for isolated R-rated towers versus roadside jam-fests. 

Eric Chabotwrote:

It's a pretty significant change to the route. It just happens incrementally rather than all at once a la a hold that breaks off.

I first climbed IHC in 2011. Then I went back in 2018 and climbed it again. It was noticeably bigger, and more 'hollowed out' behind the lip of the crack, from cam lobes rotating. If you look at old pics, it's a sharp-edged crack (now rounded out). It's going to become the incredible fist crack within a decade or so, at least in the steep part. Locals with longer memories can elaborate on if it was always the way it is now or what.

Whether a bolt would help or not is an open question too. I think if there were a bolt, terrified gumbies will still place gear before and after it and the same thing will happen. It's a hard sequence if you don't know how to crack climb pretty well. And even if you do, it's steep, which is hard for a lot of people who do know how to climb cracks (look at the grade range for Annunaki, which a creek local told me was 'definitely 5.12').

The bolt would help keep the rope from running in the crack on the upper part of the climb which would be nice. This would be sweet on other routes too. I lost a cam on a creek route once because the rope pushed it deep deep inside (Nagasaki?) when I lowered off. But that's partly due to my lack of skill in anticipating that issue.

All I see here is an argument for more bolts!  Place bolts on both sides of the crack every foot or so, rachet strap between them and pull the crack back together.  Then you can just climb the rachet straps like a via ferrata, restore the crack to it's previous glory (and prevent any more disgusting offwidths from being born), safe the soft sandstone for future generations, and nobody will fall on the crux because there won't be one anymore.  I dub it the CCC method:  "Conservation of Crack Climbing".

Thoughts, anyone?

IHC is already done. It needed a bolt ten years ago. As routes in the desert see more and more traffic, I think it is worth considering. Bolt every crack? Hell no. Bolt a sand stone crack that everyone falls in the same 6 feet turning it into a flaring pile of garbage? It might be the best option. 

7/10

What an eyesore bolts along the cracks of the majestic red walls would be. Even more so than the chalk, and tick marks, and toilet paper. Learn to climb fists. It's all eroding sandstone in the desert. Nothing is permanent.  Adapt.

Connor Dobsonwrote:

I mean sandstone cracks are boring anyway, it's just the same move over and over again. The creek is super boring, might as well just go somewhere else. 

I dunno bro, they’re perfect splitters.

CA granite is choss and all the cracks are sharp and sketchy. Tell your friends!

almostradwrote:

I dunno bro, they’re perfect splitters.

CA granite is choss and all the cracks are sharp and sketchy. Tell your friends!

I died climbing CA splitters. Would not recommend

To alleviate some of the back and forth….this is a simple thought experiment/mild complaint AND no one in this thread “pro-bolt” is advocating for lots of bolts…some of you need to reread what was written or just read the thread before you comment, sheesh. The ARGUMENT IS does a well placed bolt at the crux of trade routes, IHC was used a ONE example, help mitigate damage from constant falls by gumbies and creek rats alike thus preserving the life and aesthetics OVERALL of the route.