Do Incredible Hand Crack and other Creek trade routes need a bolt

I’ve had some discussions in closed circles about this. After recently reading some dumb Instagram post (yeah I know that’s my fault) about an individual “conquering IHC” after falling 7…SEVEN times on the crux, I got to thinking. If we want to preserve these routes for future and still abuse them, a few trade routes come to mind that may work better sans cams and with a bolt at the crux to prevent extreme wear from people over their head, refusing to aid, and falling over and over again. Please comment your thoughts and don’t hit me with the “back in my day” or “climb elsewhere” for sustainability sake those things aren’t productive.

Travis Haussener wrote:

I’ve had some discussions in closed circles about this. After recently reading some dumb Instagram post (yeah I know that’s my fault) about an individual “conquering IHC” after falling 7…SEVEN times on the crux, I got to thinking. If we want to preserve these routes for future and still abuse them, a few trade routes come to mind that may work better sans cams and with a bolt at the crux to prevent extreme wear from people over their head, refusing to aid, and falling over and over again. Please comment your thoughts and don’t hit me with the “back in my day” or “climb elsewhere” for sustainability sake those things aren’t productive.

While I understand your point to an extent, adding a bolt to a pure crack climb with perfect protection I believe would change the character of the route more than wear and tear would change the character of the route.  

There's some routes that would go on gear that I support having bolts, because the gear could actually break entire holds or pieces of the route off and significantly change the route (Flake Fest 10b at allenspur comes to mind, or Forrest in the Jemez Mountains), but in the case of IHC, it's just a slight change in the size.  I'm not too worried about that.

OMG HOW DARE YOU!!! Just kidding but MP users go berserk. I am not sure the exact reason but the Oahu climbs often have a single anchor point that is backed up. They tie these twine through the anchors so you tie your rope to the twine and you can pull it through and put yourself on top rope. Seems like this would be a reasonable accommodation but would be hard to manage with the traffic that some of these routes get. But also top roping can be dangerous if it overhangs and there is no pro in the rock.

no bolts on crack :D
Also maybe i flailed/flagged too much, but I couldn't picture anywhere you could put a reachable bolt on the crux of ICH that wouldn't get in the way of the climber.
You can see the wear on the face of the sandstone, people rub all up and down the wall there :D

Brennan VanDyke wrote:

, but in the case of IHC, it's just a slight change in the size.

It's a pretty significant change to the route. It just happens incrementally rather than all at once a la a hold that breaks off.

I first climbed IHC in 2011. Then I went back in 2018 and climbed it again. It was noticeably bigger, and more 'hollowed out' behind the lip of the crack, from cam lobes rotating. If you look at old pics, it's a sharp-edged crack (now rounded out). It's going to become the incredible fist crack within a decade or so, at least in the steep part. Locals with longer memories can elaborate on if it was always the way it is now or what.

Whether a bolt would help or not is an open question too. I think if there were a bolt, terrified gumbies will still place gear before and after it and the same thing will happen. It's a hard sequence if you don't know how to crack climb pretty well. And even if you do, it's steep, which is hard for a lot of people who do know how to climb cracks (look at the grade range for Annunaki, which a creek local told me was 'definitely 5.12').

The bolt would help keep the rope from running in the crack on the upper part of the climb which would be nice. This would be sweet on other routes too. I lost a cam on a creek route once because the rope pushed it deep deep inside (Nagasaki?) when I lowered off. But that's partly due to my lack of skill in anticipating that issue.

new yosemitesam wrote:

no bolts on crack :D
Also maybe i flailed/flagged too much, but I couldn't picture anywhere you could put a reachable bolt on the crux of ICH that wouldn't get in the way of the climber.
You can see the wear on the face of the sandstone, people rub all up and down the wall there :D

I'd imagine it would go on the left (steep) side of the crack.

No.

While I appreciate your thoughtfulness and eye to sustainability...I feel we still must absolutely resist that kind of change.  My vote is a very loud "NO."

I think in the future trad climbing on soft sandstone will be looked at like pitons are today. Acceptable in some circumstances, but too destructive for most routes.

I'm not sure how we get there from here, but I see it happening in ~50 years.

I like this thought-provoking post!  I'm personally stumped and can see the arguments on both sides.

Forrest has been fully bolted for years. I take it you haven't been to Jemez in a while?

It’s number and name chasing over your experience and pay grade - thrashing.  A bolt will have zero effect on that.  I considered all of Supercrack Buttress, and most of the 5 star 12- and under routes to be a total loss years ago.  They’re mostly slimy, worn out pieces of crap now due to years of no talent TR gang banging. 

Mocking the climber, publicly. Don't alter the route. 

James W wrote:

due to years of no talent TR gang banging. 

There's so many ways to respond to this without looking like an pretentious jackass and you chose this?

The rock is just too soft and fragile. A bolt here and there just isn't going to save any of these climbs. They're all slowly eroding away. The busier the route, the faster that's happening. Even the guidebooks tell you to maybe just climb a super classic once, then go do something else.

This is probably a troll. But NO BOLT - IHC is our martyr - destined to die for us to keep gumbies away from the REAL incredible hand cracks out there. The crux is probably fists now - deal with it. 

Trevor - you have NO IDEA what you are talking about (never even climbed in Utah or any sandstone) Please don't comment on the matter. LOL comparing IC to oahu....

Grug M wrote:

Trevor - you have NO IDEA what you are talking about (never even climbed in Utah or any sandstone) Please don't comment on the matter. LOL comparing IC to oahu....

all I’m saying is you can top rope routes by pre threading twine. I didn’t know that the rock type impacts the capacity to TR.

And I have climbed in Utah…I don’t know what your talking about, seems some else is fixated on my ticklist… believe it or not it is missing years of climbing.

Dumb. A bolt wouldn't help. If anything, it'd draw even more thrashing crack-noobs, dragging their tape/glove laden hands through the crack, which causes more erosion than the gear. 

Serious question though: I haven't been to IC since 2004... have the cracks really changed that much? 

Bolt spacing every 3 feet should be adequate. You could probly do every couple feet. Maybe compromise at intervals of 2.63 feet. Carve out some foot rests and arm bars on the inside. Drink holder at the anchor too please.

Princess Puppy Lovr wrote:

all I’m saying is you can top rope routes by pre threading twine. I didn’t know that the rock type impacts the capacity to TR.

What does top roping have to do with the current conversation? The issue is people leading past the roof on IHC which is halfway up the route. The OP is referring to a bolt midway. 

"I didn't know that rock type impacts the capacity to TR" well there you go - you aren't familiar with sandstone. TR anchor placement is nuanced and critical in sandstone to prevent wear on the surrounding rock. The rock can get deep, permanent grooves. 

Grug M wrote:

What does top roping have to do with the current conversation? The issue is people leading past the roof on IHC which is halfway up the route. The OP is referring to a bolt midway. 

I was speaking more broadly, not to specifically incredible hand crack so chill out homie. One way to reduce gear wear would be to have people top rope instead of placing a bolt. IHC doesn’t seem like the best contender for this but you apparently would rather a bolt than TR. I actually proposed an alternative…

"I didn't know that rock type impacts the capacity to TR" well there you go - you aren't familiar with sandstone. TR anchor placement is nuanced and critical in sandstone to prevent wear on the surrounding rock. The rock can get deep, permanent grooves.

I mean kinda, I wasn’t saying move the anchor, all I was saying is that sometimes maybe having easy top rope option would be better than placing bolts. You seem fixated with putting words in my mouth.

Take a deep breath man.

Edit: Grug you literally ticked top ropes in Indian creek so at the very least there has to be some climbs in the creek that currently have anchors that do not destroy the rock.