Near miss (new belayer with grigri)

JaredGwrote:

Based on the video, the Revo DOES NOT RESOLVE the failure mode mentioned in the OP.  It appears to be equally prone to clipping only 1 of the 2 plates of the device.  So that might be one reason no one brought up the Revo.

Not clipping both plates would mean you didn't even close the device. I would hope everyone climbing with a new climber would check to make sure the device is closed before climbing. The Revo wouldn't even feed if it wasn't closed. The rope would fall out and it would be EXTREMELY obvious. Pretty sure everyone who's used one (even the guy in the video) says it's the safest device on the market. That's the point here, which you've missed. Cool. 

I'm simply stating that it's way easier for a beginner to use, and safer. 

A Potterwrote:

Look up a tutorial online. 

That's so cute that your evidence is a video presented by the manufacturer.  I saw that one years ago...before the device was available.

It works like an ATC unless you feed too much rope or happen to fumble the belay. If you do, it cams automatically when the rope pulls through the device.

It requires more rope to feed until the rope reaches a certain velocity and several feet of rope before it locks.  Sounds good, unless you hit a ledge or the ground before it locks.  

 It completely backs up the flaw of the ATC (basic misuse), can be loaded in either direction, 

ATC can be loaded in either direction.  It changes the friction a bit.  But it works in either direction.  Hello?

and doesn't require the holding of a lever to perform it's basic function. You could belay with no hand on the break end (NOT RECOMMENDED) and it would catch a fall safely.

So funny.  You do know that the Grigri was marketed as an auto locking device for many years, and many people did go hands free.  But, oops, lots of accidents and deaths with grigri lead Petzel to change their claim that it is not auto locking.  It is now called lock assist!   

 Literally solves all misuse issues. 

Please, everyone, continue to beat the horse--it's very entertaining. 

Horse is alive and well.  You have proven nothing other than you really like the device. 

A Potterwrote:

Pretty sure everyone who's used one (even the guy in the video) says it's the safest device on the market. 

That’s nice but it has nothing to do with the OP.

Not clipping both plates would mean you didn't even close the device. I would hope everyone climbing with a new climber would check to make sure the device is closed before climbing.

This is exactly what this thread is about. 

No belay device is idiot proof, pick your fav and stick with it so it's like an extension of self.

A Potterwrote:

Not clipping both plates would mean you didn't even close the device. I would hope everyone climbing with a new climber would check to make sure the device is closed before climbing. The Revo wouldn't even feed if it wasn't closed. The rope would fall out and it would be EXTREMELY obvious. Pretty sure everyone who's used one (even the guy in the video) says it's the safest device on the market. That's the point here, which you've missed. Cool. 

I'm simply stating that it's way easier for a beginner to use, and safer. 

This is what I thought about the grigri when I read the OP, then I went to the gym to try to replicate what happened.  To my surprise the rope did not fall out and passed the tug test.

Nothing is idiot proof.

Greg Dwrote:

...

In addition to the Revo not really "solving" the above mentioned problems, the connection points on the Revo are noticeably less robust than connection points on the Grigri/Eddy/similar devices (see Joe Healy's comments/videos, not exactly scientific but still very informative). It's probably not very consequential in single-pitch, but I'd definitely feel more comfortable catching a high-factor or otherwise awkward fall on a Grigri than a Revo.

Edit: Not to turn this into a Revo-bashing thread, but I just pulled out my Revo and was reminded of another issue. It's very difficult to inspect the internal components of a Revo, which is a poor complement to all of the warnings WC has about getting dust or debris in the device. Does anyone know how sensitive the Revo is to this failure mode? I can see how jamming a stick in the device could cause a failure, but how worried should I be about dropping the Revo in the sand?

Edit 2: Wasn't paying attention and hit my post limit. From the Revo manual (https://www.wildcountry.com/media/pdf/c1/6f/91/RevoUserManual-OnlineVersion-compressed.pdf, page 9):

Obviously the device will function with some amount of dirt/grime, but based on the manual there is the potential for excess debris to block the locking mechanism. I do not know where those thresholds are and I haven't seen any testing to that effect. I do have a Revo I'd be willing to donate if anyone is motivated enough to do this testing, the only caveat being one of the tubers is a bit bent from a knot jamming in the device during some off-label use testing.

Edit 3: Another graphic that seems relevant to the original topic, especially the bottom panel (page 4):

Thanks everyone above for probably discouraging new climbers from the Revo. That's what this site is all about--taking things out of context. 

Wasn't the belayer in the OP a beginner? I still think it's the safest device for new climbers. I have guide friends who use it when being belayed by noobs bc they don't get short roped and know it will catch them if anything goes wrong. That's why I wanted to introduce it into the conversation, not to convince anyone it's a better belay device--just better for beginners.  

A Potterwrote:

Thanks everyone above for probably discouraging new climbers from the Revo. That's what this site is all about--taking things out of context. 

Wasn't the belayer in the OP a beginner? I still think it's the safest device for new climbers. I have guide friends who use it when being belayed by noobs bc they don't get short roped and know it will catch them if anything goes wrong. That's why I wanted to introduce it into the conversation, not to convince anyone it's a better belay device--just better for beginners.  

I didn't mean to completely discourage its use, but I do think it's pretty disingenuous to say the Revo "literally solves all misuse issues." Hopefully this discussion will inspire beginning climbers to do at least some background research and not blindly trust what some random person tells them (myself included).

A Potterwrote:

Thanks everyone above for probably discouraging new climbers from the Revo. That's what this site is all about--taking things out of context. 

Wasn't the belayer in the OP a beginner? I still think it's the safest device for new climbers. I have guide friends who use it when being belayed by noobs bc they don't get short roped and know it will catch them if anything goes wrong. That's why I wanted to introduce it into the conversation, not to convince anyone it's a better belay device--just better for beginners.  

Can you rap on a Revo?

Tradibanwrote:

Can you rap on a Revo?

Yes, you can rap a fixed line on a Revo (for what that's worth, not really my favorite method). Roughly a similar experience to rapping a fixed line on an ATC, but the device will lock up if you get moving too fast or if you're not rapping smoothly.

Is a sandy rope a concern for the Revo? Seems like places like the Red would be a major problem if that is the case. My GriGri gets pretty dirty, pretty quick and I keep my rope on a tarp and wash it semi regularly. I was interested in the Revo until reading this potential issue.

Matthew Jaggerswrote:

Is a sandy rope a concern for the Revo? Seems like places like the Red would be a major problem if that is the case. My GriGri gets pretty dirty, pretty quick and I keep my rope on a tarp and wash it semi regularly. I was interested in the Revo until reading this potential issue.

Nope. I climb in the Owens all the time, a notoriously dirty place, and I never have any issues. I only use it for single pitch cragging, particularly days when we're trying to get a lot of pitches in. Still prefer a Grigri for belaying people on projects. 

Taylor McKenziewrote:

I didn't mean to completely discourage its use, but I do think it's pretty disingenuous to say the Revo "literally solves all misuse issues." Hopefully this discussion will inspire beginning climbers to do at least some background research and not blindly trust what some random person tells them (myself included).

Sure, bad choice of words on my part. Anything can be misused. I agree with the fact that people should do their research and pick what feels safe for them. I get frustrated with beginners (literally never led a route or belayed a leader) coming to Bishop shopping for Grigris because that's what their climber friends tell them they should get. I just wish it was a more publicized option, especially for beginners. Has its flaws (weight, rapping, belaying much heavier climbers), but as someone who uses it for high volume single pitch days, I can attest to the simplicity and safety. 

A Potterwrote:

 but as someone who uses it for high volume single pitch days, I can attest to the simplicity and safety. 

The gri-gri is also safe and extremely simple to use.

Alexander Blumwrote:

The gri-gri is also safe and extremely simple to use.

Christ dude they're all simple and safe if you know what you're doing. We're talking about beginner climbers here and how to avoid accidents. The Revo doesn't require a lever or releasing mechanism which makes it a simpler concept for a beginner to become proficient with in a shorter amount of time (i.e. the first time they belay someone).

A Potterwrote:

Christ dude they're all simple and safe if you know what you're doing. We're talking about beginner climbers here and how to avoid accidents. The Revo doesn't require a lever or releasing mechanism which makes it a simpler concept for a beginner to become proficient with in a shorter amount of time (i.e. the first time they belay someone).

GriGri has been around ~30 yrs.  Statistically, it is the safest device per falls caught.  Also, carelessness is an incurable problem.  Go smoke it.

A Potterwrote:

Still prefer a Grigri for belaying people on projects. 

So as a Grigri user, you're suggesting a beginner drop $100+ on a Revo to start with, and when they inevitably start belaying their partner on projects, they then drop another $100 on a Grigri? I see why you work at a gear shop!

A Potterwrote:

Funny how no one will even bring up the Wild Country Revo as a safe alternative! This entire conversation would be unnecessary if gym climbers and casual craggers would use a Revo. I work at a gear shop and because I use a Revo for cragging, I sell them to beginner climbers all the time because I can pitch the benefits. I understand if you've used a Grigri for a long time and feel 100% comfortable, but debating how to avoid the inherent flaws with the Grigri and ATC when a safer device exists is like beating a dead horse. 

I love my Revo and use it 95% of the time. If you ever get a chance to borrow one for lead belaying, you'll be sold immediately. But it has a few minor flaws:

Seconding:
I was belaying my second up a multipitch from an equalized anchor. He had trouble and fell in a sort of slow, letting go of one hold at a time motion. Gradually, due to rope drag, all his 180 pounds came onto my Revo. It didn't autolock  because the inertia wheel needs speed to function. In this situation, it acts like a free running pully. I was holding his entire weight in my hands, and it was hard. I've been told since that I need to have a redirect biner nearby to add friction and lesson the load.

A Grigri is a much better choice in that situation where you have a weak follower on multipitch. A plate in guide mode would also work nicely, but lowering your follower to a ledge in guide mode can be tricky...where the Grigri makes it easy.

Hangdogging:
Another problem area is at the gym when my partner is leading and doesn't want to fall. They will be at the bolt and yelling "Take!"  A Grigri just works, but the Revo requires some quick extra hand motions. I can manually force the Revo to lock...but I need a second or two to pull up rope, activate the Revo cam into lock position, and then I'm good. It's holding.   I will often borrow my partners Grigri if I see some hangdogging on the horizon.

Lowering:
Because the Revo is basically a free running pulley, lowering a heavy partner at the gym requires more strength than either a plate or a Grigri. It's either free running, or locked. The Grigri has a lowering lever. Plates are inherently tighter. I wish the Revo had a manual switch or lever, just to add friction for lowering. Maybe they'll invent that in Revo version 2.

But with all that being said, I love the Revo for single pitch cragging. My Grigris are gathering dust. Nothing throws rope like a Revo. With a good brake hand, you will never activate the autolock function...so it's a great training tool for new belayers. It's bi-directional, so you can't thread it wrong.  It requires no tending...no cams to hold down for throwing rope like the Grigri.

Revo: a few minor flaws...but overall: awesome.

aikibujinwrote:

So as a Grigri user, you're suggesting a beginner drop $100+ on a Revo to start with, and when they inevitably start belaying their partner on projects, they then drop another $100 on a Grigri? I see why you work at a gear shop!

I'm simply suggesting a device that's a bit more straight forward and intuitive as an alternative for beginners. That's all, really. Amazing how you guys just have to find shit to pick apart. Just trying to help. 

You don't have to change a damn thing, because I'm guessing you're not a beginner. If you don't have anything positive to add, go somewhere else. $150 doesn't matter to people if it makes them feel safer. 

James Wwrote:

GriGri has been around ~30 yrs.  Statistically, it is the safest device per falls caught.  Also, carelessness is an incurable problem.  Go smoke it.

Ah, the age-old argument. Then why was the grigri invented? Why didn't we just stick with old tube style devices? The grigri cult acts like there can never be a safer device, like we're frozen in time. Hasn't pro become safer/lighter as technology has developed? Ropes? Harnesses? Technology can't prevent accidents caused by carelessness, but can't it help limit them?

Please find me an example of someone being dropped on a Revo. Has it ever happened? Has anyone ever died? Any examples of fatal misuse of the device? It sure as hell has happened with a grigri, so unless you can provide some stats to back this up, you're wrong. If there's an example out there, I'd love to see it. Hey, maybe I'm wrong! I'm just trying to offer some helpful advice based on my experience (what a novel idea for an MP thread). 

I agree that carelessness is an incurable problem, but no one is presenting any arguments as to why the Revo isn't a safe alternative for beginners. I'm not saying YOU need a Revo (god forbid), I'm saying it's a great device to have if you're being belayed by a beginner, or are new to lead belaying or climbing in general.