A trad climbing riddle

A few years ago, I had a partner that wanted to learn to trad climb. We went out to do several practice pitches at 5.9 and below, and he did really well, putting body weight on pieces and taking small falls. Pretty soon, we decide to get on a trad multipitch that has bolted anchors. I led the first pitch, then belayed him up to lead the second pitch. It was a beautiful day, things were going quite well so far, but I could tell the exposure was making my partner a little nervous. Nonetheless, he gears up for the lead and starts off. The first piece he placed is about 4 feet to my left, in a section of terrible, crumbly rock. This was clearly a fear placement, but I knew he had more solid gear just a few feet above, so I didn't say anything about it. He climbs a few feet more, and places a piece around a corner that I can't see. Feeling pretty nervous, he said 'take' and I did. Apparently though, this piece was also terrible. He ripped out the top piece from just his body weight, ripped out the piece placed in crumbly rock, and factor two fell onto the anchor. Luckily, the rest of the gear worked as expected and no one was hurt. 

Here is the riddle. The top piece, the one he weighted, was still attached to the rope when he was done falling. The lower piece though, the one placed in poor rock, both came out of the rock and came unclipped from the rope. I never found it. How can that be? How can there be two points of failure from a single fall?

Maybe the cam was 'backclipped' and came unclipped, but then how did it come out of the rock? Maybe he kicked out the piece when he fell, but then what would have caused it to come unclipped? Feels unlikely, but what if the carabiner holding the cam to the rope broke from the force of the fall? Even if it did, how did the cam then come out of the rock too? Help me out MP, this has been bothering me for years. 

The bouncing of the springy rope was able to both pull the piece out and slap the carabiner around just right that the gate opened and the rope popped out. The rope/rock could have opened the gate first, then got trapped between the gate and the rest of the carabiner, then pulled the piece only to have it pop off the rope. A bad placement in crumbly rock might not take a lot of force to dislodge, especially if it was passive and had some upward pull.

What i want to know is why didn’t you clip a high draw or locker to one of the anchor bolts to prevent a factor 2 fall???

What i want to know is why didn’t you clip a high draw or locker to one of the anchor bolts to prevent a factor 2 fall???

I did, my point was that my partner fell onto the anchor.

The bouncing of the springy rope was able to both pull the piece out and slap the carabiner around just right that the gate opened and the rope popped out.

I'm having trouble visualizing a way in which the rope could open a carabiner, no matter how it slapped it, unless there was some sort of backclipping action. 

Patti Degner wrote:

I did, my point was that my partner fell onto the anchor.

I'm having trouble visualizing a way in which the rope could open a carabiner, no matter how it slapped it, unless there was some sort of backclipping action. 

I've seen a rope unclip from a biner on a sport route from a fall. So anything is possible when you have shit gear pulling on a fall. I would encourage him to climb easier shit until he learns to place better gear. I climbed 2-3 grades below my max for a couple of years before I started leading harder stuff on gear. There is stuff on YouTube on rope's coming unclipped from a carabiner.

I assume a trad draw - ie, an unconstrained biner?  I’ve actually seen this many times.  Yes, usually not the highest piece, but one lower that is more subject to the guitar string vibration of the rope.  Trad draws are a bad idea for pieces that count - consider lockers or a sport draw.  Google Wayne Crill.

Maybe your noob bud just dropped the thing while removing it from the lead rope in the post-fall hubub and then didn't fess up about it?

P Degnerwrote:

I'm having trouble visualizing a way in which the rope could open a carabiner, no matter how it slapped it, unless there was some sort of backclipping action. 

The rock would open the gate when the rope slapped the carabiner into the rock...

James Wwrote:

I assume a trad draw - ie, an unconstrained biner?  I’ve actually seen this many times.  Yes, usually not the highest piece, but one lower that is more subject to the guitar string vibration of the rope.  Trad draws are a bad idea for pieces that count - consider lockers or a sport draw.  Google Wayne Crill.

Is a "trad draw" just a super skinny dogbone draw, or are you talking about an Alpine Draw, aka, 60/120cm sling with 2 carabiners?

How about the fall bent/broke the gate of the carabiner connecting the cam to the rope during the ripping of the piece creating an open link? Cam then come free and gets tossed into the great beyond. Without the piece of gear to inspect, we will just never know.

a z clip with failure. 

Matthew Jaggerswrote:

Is a "trad draw" just a super skinny dogbone draw, or are you talking about an Alpine Draw, aka, 60/120cm sling with 2 carabiners?

For most a “trad draw” is a 24” runner tripled with 2 loose biners.  However - any unconstrained biner, including your cams, has a higher chance of unclipping than a sport draw or a cam with the rope biner constrained from rotating freely.

Also - biner doesn’t need to hit a rock.  It doesn’t take long playing around in your living room to see possible scenarios.  It does happen.  Lead falls transmit very high forces all the way through the chain.

Has nobody heard of gate flutter?

E Fwrote:

Has nobody heard of gate flutter?

Do you mean the thing that happens when the rope bounces around in a spring-like way, slapping the carabiner around?  Nope...

JNEwrote:

Do you mean the thing that happens when the rope bounces around in a spring-like way, slapping the carabiner around?  Nope...

It was a bit of sarcasm...

I was just surprised nobody had mentioned it yet

In a lead fall the rope can tension rather quickly and yank gear rather violently, potentially causing whiplash to the gear which can open gates. Once, a friend of mine fell with three or four pieces in.  The top piece held. The bottom piece ripped out of the wall, disconnected from the rope and flew over my head.

Also, this does not sound like a factor 2. Did you brake downward or upward? If downward, and the rope was running up through the anchor then this is not a factor 2. Factor two’s are very difficult to catch because of the high load and the need to change the brake direction in a fraction of a second.

The only riddle here is why did you let a beginner leader lead a pitch with poor gear and then take. It sounds like you don’t have the knowledge or experience to be a trad mentor yet. You are lucky both of you are alive.

E Fwrote:

Has nobody heard of gate flutter?

I don’t see a gate opening 9mm+ on flutter alone, fhen staying open long enough for a rope to pass through - then the probability of the timing of that. Studies I recall from the 90’s indicated wire gates reduced the problem to near nil.  IMO this is something else - likely the runner or rope pulling the gate open - especially given this happens more frequently with an unconstrained biner (OP has not confirmed).  However, without the problem reproduced for high speed video…

James Wwrote:

I don’t see a gate opening 9mm+ on flutter alone, fhen staying open long enough for a rope to pass through…

Gate flutter doesn’t open the biner enough for the rope to escape - it causes the biner to break.

Marc801 Cwrote:

Gate flutter doesn’t open the biner enough for the rope to escape - it causes the biner to break.

Wouldn't a broken biner also allow the rope to escape?

I'm not saying that's what happened--it seems like there are way too many possibilities to come up with a clear answer here.

David Kwrote:

Wouldn't a broken biner also allow the rope to escape?

Well of course! I was replying to the person who thought gate flutter couldn’t open it enough for the rope to escape (it can’t), ignoring or not knowing that the real issue is breaking the biner.  

Marc801 Cwrote:

Well of course! I was replying to the person who thought gate flutter couldn’t open it enough for the rope to escape (it can’t), ignoring or not knowing that the real issue is breaking the biner.  

Ah, I see.