party of 3 on multipitch

It does not matter what you use for your belay device use a dam munter, for all I care just be safe. However If you would have tried to use a Gri gri on me we defiantly would have some words at the belay because you just couldn’t get the slack out fast enough. Now understand this is for moderate 5.7 to 5.10 climbing { on Aid I would ask for you to use the Gri gri }  . I prefer to use the standard ATC.  Point is use what you know and are comfortable with. {this is a whole different topic altogether} I think that around 60% of my climbing had been done in a party of three at either the Valley, Leap or the high Sierra’s. We climbed faster than 90% of the parties of two out there. For a few simple reasons. 1} Most important Rope Management. 2} Gear management 3} swinging leads 4} knowing your anchor systems  5} knowing your partners.  Know where to put the ropes how to trade the rack even how you collect the gear and re-rack when you follow it all matters. We used the safe method of two ropes second ties into both ropes. It’s not rocket science. It just comes down to moving quickly and efficiently over moderate terrain. It does helps if everyone is climbing a few grades below their lead level and to climbing together consistently as a team. This is why we passed parties of two all the time. We had a standing offer you could pass us anytime you wanted if you were fast enough just clip in our pro and go in all my years of climbing in a party of three we only meet one team that took us up on the offer that was fast enough. And twice by climbers soloing.

The biggest problems people have on muti-pitch routes typically is rope management, not knowing when & how to place gear properly and route finding. This comes with lots practice and experience it doesn’t happen overnight. If you are getting pissed that there is a party of three on the route ask if you can climb through.  It’s kind of like golf (I don’t golf} the slower parties should let the faster parties move ahead.  If not move to another route.

If you have all these systems dialed in you will be fine

*I am now old, crippled and fat I now prefer people to use a Gri gri on me.

Climbing with a team of 3 can be awesome, and doesn't necessarily slow things down at all if you know how to do it. The best is to have several techniques to work with depending on terrain, and to use and practice all of them so you're comfortable adjusting as the terrain and situation dictates. Here's a graphic from my book showing 3 safe and common options.
Advanced Rock Climbing, Expert Skills and Techniques

Jesus Christ people, use guide mode and belay two people at the same time, it ain't hard.

Tradiban wrote: Jesus Christ people, use guide mode and belay two people at the same time, it ain't hard.

You're probably burlier than I, but I find guide mode can be hard. After leading a long pumper pitch through wandery terrain with rope drag, with a belay anchor over the lip of a ledge, or any pumper pitch for that matter, I find pulling two ropes through a guide mode device takes more energy than I usually have. I often find it's way easier to have the third follow in rope solo mode using Progress Capture Devices (mini/micro tracs) as shown the graphic above and the upper 2 climbers can climb as a regular team of 2. Gotta be careful of loose rock, and keep the third out of the drop zone, but that's the case with guide mode also.

Why isn't the system closed in the TR solo set up in the illustration. There is no redundancy in the 3rd climber's system, since a failure of a micro traxion (or whichever device) would be catastrophic. That climber should be tied into the end and managing the rope as they climb. When jugging an aid route, two jumars, a back-up device (or clove) and a tie-in are used, why is the free climbing solution here so much less secure? It's because coiling and carrying that rope is so time consuming and difficult while free climbing.

We get it Lon, you are salty. Short roping a leader isn't the about the device, it is about the belayer's competence. The grigri is an ideal device for feeding out slack quickly to a fast leader. A GiGi is a useful device for those belaying two followers simultaneously a lot. It has wider slots and let's ropes up to ~10.2 be pulled through in guide mode with about half the friction of an ATC-guide. Belaying two followers on a munter at the same time is not possible, so yes, belay device selection does matter here. 

Sorry Joe you missed my point completely.  I was joking about using the munter as an example. {which happens to puts a twist in the rope so no I really don’t encourage it}. My point was to use what you are familiar with and know your systems.  You don't need to go buy a new belay device to be efficient.   While moving quickly on moderate terrain I don’t like the Gri gri.  Aid climbing I love it. Top roping it's fine. Hey it maybe your goto for all of climbing for all I know. For me there were times I didn’t want my belayer to use a Gri gri period. There are also times when it’s my preferred device. There is a time and a place for every tool.............................................................. like here when my belayer just wants to sleep it's the best!

 Old yes Salty that just depends on who you ask.  Now you dam kids get off my yard!
Joe I hope I see you out climbing someday.

LOL

Close to either followers limit then two ropes in guide mode.

2 numbers below limit then 1 rope, one ties in with alpine butterfly with two lockers. He also carries a knife in case the last guy falls because a good climber does the right thing and cuts the rope. 

Glowering · Close to either followers limit then two ropes in guide mode.

2 numbers below limit then 1 rope, one ties in with alpine butterfly with two lockers. He also carries a knife in case the last guy falls because a good climber does the right thing and cuts the rope.

That's old school Joe Simpson we no longer recommend that method as a primary technique. You are really on the sharp end now.

  
 

Tradiban wrote: Jesus Christ people, use guide mode and belay two people at the same time, it ain't hard.

Yep, this is the way to do it. When the 2nds get up to the belay, one can be the manager and hydrate, eat, sort, etc, and the other the belayer for next leader. Switch up roles and keep everyone doing something and moving. 

Luis Armando Gil wrote:Now there is another method that I have used on easy terrain: I bring a single rope and tie the second and the 3rd  relatively close to each other (20ft or so)  I basically have both followers simul climb.  Has anybody use this method? 

I used this and a similar method on the SE Corner when I unexpectedly ended up with a party of three and only 1 rope(70m). I did as you described to link p1&2 then moved the second to the halfway point. Above the third pitch, when the second arrived and had the third on belay I began up the next pitch with enough rope out and cloved to my second to get to the next large ledge/anchor as the upper pitches are barely 5th class. Falling would be a bad idea, but at least I'd just ledge out instead of ending up on the tracks. 

Was pretty efficient despite having to do shorter pitches, after getting it dialed I think it's a good option as long as the whole party can climb 5.9, is competent, and the leader knows the route well. Did it with a single rack but might bring doubles in fingers next time to place instead of nuts if the third isn't fast at cleaning.

You just run a second rope off the second climber going to the 3rd. I've run a single party of 4 with the leader going 1st, the 2nd running twin ropes off his/her harness and then the 3rd climbs 15 ft or so and the 4th finally comes up. The leader or 2nd is belaying off the anchor using a double sided ATC. 

To further Todd's comment, I've had good times with three people on one 70m rope. Leader leads, pulls up slack as normal till it hits the next climber, then fixes the rope. Second mini-traxions up while the leader actually rests. Once the second arrives a standard exchange happens, and lead climbing resumes on the second (top) half of the rope. At this point the third is mini-traxioning up the fixed end of the rope. Rinse and repeat.

Tradiban wrote: Jesus Christ people, use guide mode and belay two people at the same time, it ain't hard.

Agreed. Despite some serious reservations about the complexity, I just did this for the first time and it turned out to be extremely simple. Loosely pulling on both strands every few seconds automatically pulled slack for either or both climbers. And we had two ropes to rap with when finished.

Also, at a changeover I prefer to sit down and watch everyone else work so party of 3 is great

Climbing in a party of 3 is the best! You always have someone to chat with! Just learn how to use half ropes. Its very simple belaying with two ropes on an atc device. Just divide the two ropes in your hand with your pinky so it doesn't get tangled and youre golden!

Joe Crawfordwrote:

Why isn't the system closed in the TR solo set up in the illustration. There is no redundancy in the 3rd climber's system, since a failure of a micro traxion (or whichever device) would be catastrophic. That climber should be tied into the end and managing the rope as they climb. When jugging an aid route, two jumars, a back-up device (or clove) and a tie-in are used, why is the free climbing solution here so much less secure? It's because coiling and carrying that rope is so time consuming and difficult while free climbing.

They actually are backed up in the image...not closed, but they show a chest rig with some kind of device attached to the rope, in addition to the device on their harness...maybe a trax + grigri, or similar? A few catastrophe knots below wouldn't be a bad idea as well, but at least they show some redundancy (which is probably explained in the text that is our of frame).

Pretty rare Topher Donahue post ….. !!

Robert Cortwrote: ... and tying in on a bight (alpine butterfly NOT figure 8) would suffice. If using a single rope, I prefer to have the second tie in with a bowline on a bight. That way they are tied directly into the rope, and don't risk a cross loaded 'biner in the event of a fall. If tying (clipping) into an alpine butterfly, suggest using two lockers for the same reason. That being said, I prefer using twins or half ropes, the second(s) are both tied into their own rope. It doesn't add much weight, the loads are split better, you now have two ropes for rappels, and if a rope gets stuck or something your options are more plentiful. If swinging leads, the change over at belays is a little complicated if you want to avoid re-stacking the ropes. Basically, the new leader gets the rope end from the second that is not going to lead, and the previous leader gives their end of that same rope back to the person that just gave up their end. The ropes should now feed out as stacked.

Isn't it unsafe to have someone be tied in on only a single half rope? I thought you always needed to have 2 half ropes at a time?

To address the crowded belay issue:

If you’re using an atc in guide mode you can park your third on a ledge below the anchor and tie a backup knot on the brake strand.

Tim Wheatleywrote:

Isn't it unsafe to have someone be tied in on only a single half rope? I thought you always needed to have 2 half ropes at a time?

It's a judgment call.  A single half rope is adequate for top rope falls. But, the margin of safety for a possible cut rope is reduced.  Perhaps it is ok for easier terrain where falls or sharp rock are unlikely.  Probably not ideal for climbing at your limit.  But, a party of 3 is not ideal for climbing at your limit either.  

A few dozen times I've climbed as a party of 3 where we use one rope and the two followers tie in 15 or so feet apart, the middle climber using a figure 8 knot connected via two carabiners, at least one of which is a locker. I see other methods mentioned here, but is there anything "wrong" about this set up that I'm missing? It does require the lowest climber to keep pace with the middle climber, so you want the stronger climber on the bottom, as if they fall they'll likely pull the middle climber off, but so far the lowest climber has never fallen - does anyone have a bad story about the bottom climber falling and causing any kind of accident? With both parties on top rope and a decently tight belay I don't see how any real serious accident could result, other than the anchor suddenly taking the weight of both parties...